it's very amusing to me to see "experts"

[Tugaloo]

I was issued an M16A1 during a Field Exercise in Fort Wainwright Alaska in Feb '75, after carrying that useless piece of crap in the Arctic through the bush for 10 days at temperatures between -10F to -45F (tentbound) I never want to see it again where snow is involved. By the way the enemy force during that exercise were the Eskimo Rangers up there, they had Garands, surprisingly they worked!

What were you using, LSA? "They claim LSA works to -65°. As as anyone who was stationed or trained in those temperatures discovered that was pure baloney. LSA turns into glue in those temperatures.

Today, there have been tremendous advances in lubrication; it's tribology, the science of lubrication. Years ago, an engineer was chosen to be the lubrication engineer; nowadays, they studied tribology.

This is an good read on sub zero weapons lubrication.

https://www.cherrybalmz.com/product-page/winter-balm

"stone cold reliability to ARs down to roughly -65°F, and for 9mm handguns at -55°F."

Interestingly, there is a 10° temperature differential between an AR and a 9mm pistol. However, they make no claims for its effectiveness at other temperatures.

[Garand]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS]orangetom1999:


To help the AR or any semi in extreme cold is to avoid oil and use a grease.
For example: https://www.cherrybalmz.com/product-page/winter-balm

You'll enjoy seeing the "Garand Grease cup" mentioned.
Their site is very interesting: https://www.cherrybalmz.com/our-balmz---the-why

I was issued an M16A1 during a Field Exercise in Fort Wainwright Alaska in Feb '75, after carrying that useless piece of crap in the Arctic through the bush for 10 days at temperatures between -10F to -45F (tentbound) I never want to see it again where snow is involved. By the way the enemy force during that exercise were the Eskimo Rangers up there, they had Garands, surprisingly they worked!

[Tugaloo]

I have found that I like a single shot...rifle.''

I always admired to have one of those Rolling Blocks or falling blocks...like the HIgh Wall or such.


Was a bit astonished to find out what is costs for a good single shot ….

Nonetheless...black powder and or the Contender taught me to admire a well made single shot...



Getting a bit concerned here as these latest mass shootings are happening with too much regularity.....almost scheduled to me.

And we have not even entered the hot months per se..

I felt like this was going to happen months ago...


Orangetom
Not an Ishmaelite.

I must admit I enjoy all of them.

I know what you are saying with some firearms, I don't see paying their asking price.

A well made single shot is to be admired, but no more or less that a sub MOA group from any kind of rifle or a shotgun that patterns beautifully.

Mass shootings are senseless and horrific. OTOH, I agreed, they are almost scheduled. It does make one wonder what is behind it..

[orangetom1999]

I have found that I like a single shot...rifle.''

I always admired to have one of those Rolling Blocks or falling blocks...like the HIgh Wall or such.


Was a bit astonished to find out what is costs for a good single shot ….

Nonetheless...black powder and or the Contender taught me to admire a well made single shot...



Getting a bit concerned here as these latest mass shootings are happening with too much regularity.....almost scheduled to me.

And we have not even entered the hot months per se..

I felt like this was going to happen months ago...


Orangetom
Not an Ishmaelite.

[Tugaloo]

Some rifles just went together better than others.

The M1A is a superb rifle... I've never heard anyone "put down" the M1A.

Full auto is a tool that must be used judiciously; if not, one runs out of ammo. ;) Some semis are sub MOA accurate; same as some bolt guns. The difference between them is either shoots a 5 or 10 shot group; however, the semi is faster landing those 10 shots. Is that important; well it depends. LOL
Shooting is fun and that is all that counts...

I enjoy black powder myself and learned to load using smokeless. The 45-70 Trapdoor Springfield was an educational experience. The minie ball has a cone shaped cavity in the base to obdurate when fired or it expanded to better fit the bore. The modern definition of obdurate doesn't mention sealing the bore.. LOL
Their version of point blank was "zero to 200 yards; at first, I thought huh. The point of aim was where the throat joined the shoulders at close range it hit there and at 200 yards, it hit around the belt buckle.. In either case, it was highly effective; although, it lacked today's finesse.. Past 200 yards, they raised the Buffington sight..

[orangetom1999]

Yeah...for some reason my 7.7mm Arisaka survived with the Mum not ground off as is the case with so many. I also have on it that noisey cover over the bolt mechanism....but it shoots surprisingly well making me think it is an early production rifle ...before their quality control broke down so badly in everything

I've handled a couple of civilian versions of the M14 and liked them....very similar in feel to to the M1 Garand..

Understand the workings and philosophy of semis and even full auto..but don't care for them alot.

Black powder taught me to try to shoot more accurately and shooting alot does not make up for poor accuracy....and in particular today at the cost of ammunition.

To add to what black powder taught me...so too did rolling my own ammo teach me to try to shoot more accurately.


Spending alot of time at the reloading bench and then shooting it up in less than five minutes ....to me is just plain dumb...LOL LOL LOL>..and that is how I learned...


Orangetom
Not an Ishmaelite

[Tugaloo]

orangetom,
Quite a surprise, 7.7 mm is .3031487. However I don't know if the Japanese used land or groove?? The Brits nickname for the Enfield was Old Smiley. Its cycling is very fast for a bolt action.

Accurizing the M14 is complicated; agreed they just pulled them out of storage.. That being said, in Basic, I shot expert with a M14 that had been through many training cycles. Most in my training platoon qualified as sharpshooter with quite a few experts. I forget how many hits were required at 500 meters, it was significant. Judging by all torn up dirt from firing low centered on the targets; the problem was more with the user and not the rifle.

The M4's barrel length added to the lack of range problems. The US prepares for the next war based on the last war. At Vietnam's short rang of engagement; the M16 and M177 worked well.

The Army planned to swap uppers to 6.8 SPC. Remington in collaboration with members of the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit, United States Special Operations Command developed the 6.8 SPC. Basically, it is almost as accurate as the 6.5 CM and its terminal ballistics are almost as lethal as the 7mm. A lot to like; instead they went to a 6.0.
A bud in Oregon harvested an Elk at 200 yards or so with a 6.8 SPC. He took pictures and the terminal ballistics were impressive.

Pictures I've seen of the Taliban's AKs showed they were cleaned so often; bare metal showed.

Bolt actions are good stuff; engaging multiple moving targets, a semi would be better..

[orangetom1999]

Tugaloo.....

You got me to thinking.....

Seems to me that we ran into a similar problem and issues with the M16 rifles in Afghanistan....lack of effective range over such wide open areas and against the Olde Enfield rifles sometimes used by the Muj. As I recall the stories...it caused the military to bring out of storage the remaining M14s....and re issue. Ironic to me how such things work out...

I expect also that a number of accurate long range bolt action rifles in appropriate calibrations have been been issued as well.

How does that go....plans of mice and men...et al.??

Thank goodness for air cover..!!

Orangetom
Not an Ishmaelite.

[orangetom1999]

Tugaloo...

Same here....about the power line cuts....it is mostly wooded here and long range shots seldom happen.

Until one gets out of this area.....it is mostly shotgun....


I have both a Garand and the 1903 Springfield...and both stock....nothing done to them.

Of the two I can tell in accuracy the 1903 has the edge...

I also have an Ishapore Enfield Rifle in .308 calibration and it is a nice rifle....but it is not a 1903 Springfield.
This Enfield is also noticeably heavier than the Springfield.

I never wanted the .303 calibration as it is not as commonly available here as is the .308 or 30.06. This is mostly simple logistics...for me.

To me there is nothing wrong with the ballistics of the .303 if you know how to use it...but it is simply not that common around here.


I do also own a WW2 7.7mm Japanese Arisaka...and ammo is also not that available around here and when you find it ....expensive.

The Olde Timers at the gun club taught me how to make my own by reforming 30.06 brass in a 7.7mm die set and then cut down the neck length. Works out well in keeping me in ammo for it. Ironically the bullets reloaded into this set up are .303 British bullets.

When I have the time I enjoy this kind of reloading and forming my own brass out of a parent case. It is labor intensive but satisfying that one can overcome such obstacles and keep ones self in ammo.

Plenty of 30.06 brass to be found out there and also plenty of .223 brass as well.


Orangetom
Not an Ishmaelite.

[Tugaloo]

orangetom1999:
Every caliber has a range of engagement and the weight of a combat loadout.
In Afghanistan, the Muj adopted the shoot and scoot against the Russians. Their 7.62 or 5.45 was at a serious disadvantage against the .303 Brit's range. Our forces added a DRM that could reach out and touch.
In the bunkers of the Golan Heights, the Uzi was overmatch for the AK-47. In a confined space, a 9mm Uzi had the advantage; increase the range and it would have been all AK.

The key to long range shooting is if one is at the range.. Where we live, unless one is shooting on power line clear cuts; range is limited by the thick forest. And, in the thick forest's short range of vision, what proper CF caliber doesn't work??

Like you my wife and I enjoy for entertainment purposes shows like "Life below Zero", Alone, etc. Where we live on the Canadian Prairies it actually does get to -40F during the winter, but then GunKid says we won't survive. He bases his theory on his lack of knowledge, he neglects life reality also. In my country the government has banned the use of all AR's and Black 5.56mm's and is now working to confiscate them. All AR's in this country are registered and have been for almost 30 years. Based on my experience the AR sucks in an Arctic climate. Given the cold and open spaces I'd be better off with an M1 Garand in .30-06

Quite correct and same here with enjoying the entertainment for its purpose to entertain.
Gunkid personifies your statement "lack of knowledge" and he is good at showing his lack off. He watches too much TV and takes it seriously. You live on the Canadian Prairies and we live in the mountains of NE Georgia; as a result, our challenges are very different. GK doesn't get that. To him, one solution fits all..

To help the AR or any semi in extreme cold is to avoid oil and use a grease.
For example: https://www.cherrybalmz.com/product-page/winter-balm

You'll enjoy seeing the "Garand Grease cup" mentioned.
Their site is very interesting: https://www.cherrybalmz.com/our-balmz---the-why

I grew up hunting deer with a 30-06 from a 1903-A4. It was sporterized with a Douglas supreme barrel or I'm a Bubba. However, in its day, it harvested a lot of deer and I could afford it from the NRA/DCM. Yes, I still own it and it will still shoot it. Shooting slow, it shoots a very tight group and shooting rapidity, its sporter barrel vertically strings.

[orangetom1999]

Some years back I recall speaking on my ham radio with fellow up in Alberta, Canada. I asked him if he ever got many black outs and or phones going out for lengthy periods of times.

To my surprise he told me that does not happen often now days since someone got smart and buried the utilities underground.

Long before all this technology for which so many of us take for granted today...people did not fold up and blow away. They got tough or they perished.

There is some kind of annual sled race which goes on up in Canada...Alaska or both...people come from far away to run it; I think it is called Iditarod..or some such name. You gotta be of rough tough stuff to run such an sled race with dogs..

The tough ones are still out there and they have more than a television and or movie education....thank God for that..!!


Was never keen on the AR 15 series of rifles.Prefer the SKS or the M1 Garand or the 1903 Springfield...but that is just me.


LOL LOL LOL...AR 15 rifles......the government is worried about me with an AR 15 Rifle......LOL LOL LOL..

If they knew how incredibly stupid they really are....how much of their education they have wasted in trying to herd everyone into one size fits all.

These people are trying to Herd everyone with a warped sense of entitlement....demonically sick they are.....demonically.

Their largest voting cities are turning into violent cess pools....and no one is talking about it or doing anything ...but they are worried about Herding the rest of us out of our guns..

You have to be educated to become so giftedly stupid. Extremely educated....to become so stupid....



I work down here where the Nimitz class aircraft carriers all have been born...a number of submarines too.

I am on the teams which install the uranium fuel cells into the reactors....and have handled hundreds of these cells...


And these guys are worried about me with an AR 15....????!!! You see......!!??

You gotta be educated to become so stupid in your attempts at Herding Americans and America and going internationalist...like Canada has done..

Or you need to work constantly to Herd Americans into fear and ignorance...dumbing them down.....constantly....Drama Drama Drama!!



Europe too.


We are not Europeans or Continentals...

Now you see....???

If you cannot be trusted with your gun...any gun.....you will not be trusted with your vote...and the recent election clearly told us about the value of our votes.

Be Warned the Ishmaelites trying to put us into mental, spiritual, and eventually physical bondage....

This is not "Limited Government."

Orangetom
Not an Ishmaelite.

[Garand]

Thanks Garand, I did. One site article was "The Return of Gunkid." Quite informative and a Darwin Award winner for sure. LOL
I'd bet when he vacationed at Club Fed; he was safe from the general population in PC/Protective Custody.



Add his fixation with YouTube. LOL
Don't get me wrong, I watch YouTube videos, a few survival TV shows and "Life Below Zero.". As we live in the mountains of northeast Georgia, Life below Zero is of little use here.

I read one of the driving reasons between the switch from .30 CAL to 7.62 NATO was the same conex shipping container would hold more 7.62 NATO ammo than .30 CAL

Registror, AKA Gun kid ignores drift. At 300 meters with a 10 MPH/16 km, a .308 drifts less than a 5.56. At 600 meters, the difference is huge. Any ballistics software can easily calculate the difference.. [/FONT]

Like you my wife and I enjoy for entertainment purposes shows like "Life below Zero", Alone, etc. Where we live on the Canadian Prairies it actually does get to -40F during the winter, but then GunKid says we won't survive. He bases his theory on his lack of knowledge, he neglects life reality also. In my country the government has banned the use of all AR's and Black 5.56mm's and is now working to confiscate them. All AR's in this country are registered and have been for almost 30 years. Based on my experience the AR sucks in an Arctic climate. Given the cold and open spaces I'd be better off with an M1 Garand in .30-06

[orangetom1999]

You know....now that I think about ...it ...though I like the .308 and also the 30.06.....as they are both
Available coast to coast......

I don,t really have alot of use or preference for the .223 or 5.56 mm calibration.

The interesting thing to me ...if one knows much about long range shooting ....and that is that today the 300 Win Mags and now the various .338 calibers are used more than in years past ....and supplanting the .308 and also the 30.06.

Even the 6.5mms are supplanting the .308s today in those fields....

Also I am aware that certain military groups ...have long been dissatisfied with the in field performance of the 5.56 mm calibration...and are wanting something with heavier energy delivery capabilities...meaning a heavier bigger diameter bullet...

The main thing about the .223 and also the 5.56mm is that it is very commonly available...coast to coast....along with the .308 and 30.06.
It is also a calibration that one of smaller stature can quickly learn to use.

To me this .308 and .223 debate is useless.....

You select a certain calibration for the task at hand ......and think it through carefully...one size does not always fit all.

My non Ishmaelite .02,
Orangetom

[orangetom1999]

I read one of the driving reasons between the switch from .30 CAL to 7.62 NATO was the same conex shipping container would hold more 7.62 NATO ammo than .30 CAL

LOL LOL LOL LOL.....caused me to spit up my drink!!!!!!

Orangetom
Not an Ishmaelite.

[Tugaloo]

Thanks Garand, I did. One site article was "The Return of Gunkid." Quite informative and a Darwin Award winner for sure. LOL
I'd bet when he vacationed at Club Fed; he was safe from the general population in PC/Protective Custody.

You’ll find he has a weird fixation on the show Alone, just like his strange hatred for the .308 family of cartridges.

I predict that he will reference the show multiple times in every forum he posts in, along with the necessity of a .22 unit for your AR.

Add his fixation with YouTube. LOL
Don't get me wrong, I watch YouTube videos, a few survival TV shows and "Life Below Zero.". As we live in the mountains of northeast Georgia, Life below Zero is of little use here.

I read one of the driving reasons between the switch from .30 CAL to 7.62 NATO was the same conex shipping container would hold more 7.62 NATO ammo than .30 CAL

Registror, AKA Gun kid ignores drift. At 300 meters with a 10 MPH/16 km, a .308 drifts less than a 5.56. At 600 meters, the difference is huge. Any ballistics software can easily calculate the difference..