Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Power down

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by cwi555 View Post

    As for taking out the entire country, it doesn't have to. Consider the aftermath of the world Trade centers. It doesn't have to take down the whole country. Just taking down the NE corridor would be enough. If the attacking powers really wanted to hurt us, they would use two devices. One over the NE, and one over Oklahoma. The latter doesn't make sense on first blush. However when you consider the convergence of pipelines criss crossing that state it becomes crystal clear.
    How are we to deliver food, fuel for generation plants, and every other delivered good if the gas/diesel supply is taken out or at a minimum severely hampered?

    It is my opinion that the EMP fiction writers are barking up the wrong tree. The entire grid doesn't need to come down. The chaos that ensues from the above will do the job much more efficiently. If I can realize that, many of the enemies of the US can as well.
    Now think what would happen if they took out the west coast.

    Comment


    • #47
      they quickly buried the report but an evaluation was done regarding the power grid in the US and it was identified that the system pretty much centers around 4 hubs. take those hubs out and the entire system collapses. When the US was trying to knock out the power grids in other countries, they weren't actually bombing the lines/stations or using EMP's. They would saturate a main terminal with "spaghetti" material, intended on shorting out the system without actually damaging it, effectively taking away the power but keeping the system intact.
      Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

      Comment


      • #48
        Ted Koppel wrore a book about that very thing, our power grids going out. "Lights Out" is the title, and you can probably find it at your local library like I did. It was interesting.some of it I knew, but he went I to more detail.

        Cedar

        Comment


        • #49
          Yeah, Koppel conveniently stole the title from a very well known prepper fiction book by the same name. Also as I recall he had quite a few things incorrect/ miss stated and a lot of the things he discussed are things the prepper community has known for many a moon. If you search the threads you'll find one on this.
          I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you!

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by CountryGuy View Post
            Yeah, Koppel conveniently stole the title from a very well known prepper fiction book by the same name. Also as I recall he had quite a few things incorrect/ miss stated and a lot of the things he discussed are things the prepper community has known for many a moon. If you search the threads you'll find one on this.
            There are multiple songs and books with the same name, that is why there are ISBN numbers. Koppel was writing to a different audience than us. We have known, but he got more mainstream people to hopefully listen. I do not begrudge Koppel that. Whatever it takes to get more people thinking and doing for themselves, even if it is merely baby steps.
            What parts did he get wrong? I did read the book, and although he was not right on target as I would have preferred, I do not recall anything he was dead wrong about.

            Cedar

            Comment


            • #51
              Cedar,
              I was making my statements based on the interview I saw him give on the book. To be honest I couldn't see spending my money on it so I didn't. I don't recall the specific items I found to be in error at the time but during his interview I recall taking notice of some incorrect items or at least mis presented info. So either he didn't recall what he wrote and it differed from what is in the book likely due to it being a ghost writer creation he didn't fully know the contents of.

              I will agree that getting any of the sheeple to take notice and come in from the field is great. If the govt is going to to anything it'd be nice to see there promote some of the ideas they themselves list on Ready.gov and on FEMA.gov. if they did that even at just 20% of the marketing push they use on things like medicaid, medicare, and various welfare programs maybe it would reach more and get some to take a little more notice. Also if they'd be honest ( i know, hard to not laugh) and say "look America, we don't have the money, supplies or infrastructure to take care of you, your grandma, uncle jimmy and your puppy dog Bo during a catastrophe much less something wide spread like a pandemic event so start doing for yourselves! Don't expect or demand that we'll be there to feed you and wipe your butt." even more might understand it isn't BS. Maybe even more would get the idea that hmmm maybe I should have water, maybe I should have a few weeks of food and a way to heat my place or light it, etc.. Maybe if the politicians had a backbone (again trying not to laugh) and would say look we need to cut all the handouts like welfare, SSI, handouts to foreign countries, handouts to the UN, NATO etc and say look, per the enumerated directives of the Constitution and in face of total common sense we need to invest in our infrastructure. No fat bloated contracts but truly start building the grid (and hardening it), rebuilding and making safer the water systems repairing highways, bridges and in many places privatizing various items so they are ran and maintained as is needed we could effect real change.

              Sorry, getting a bit sidetracked. Guess at end of the day it is about trust and I don't trust Koppel. Think it's just his way of making money on a timely topic.
              I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you!

              Comment


              • #52
                always amazes me about this question - EMP? - is it an EMP or solar event? - if an EMP has a nuke gone off already in an attack or an enhanced device in orbit - either way there's an attack under way and you need to get to a protected shelter IMMEDIATELY ....

                Comment


                • #53
                  I have read the book lights out but by a different author. I must say it was a bit of a wake up call. The book by the author you mention I have not heard about.
                  Countryguy, I do have to agree with what you are saying. No telling how things will be if we are hit. Our great government will more than likely put their heads between their legs and run to their nice cozy bomb shelters.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Illini Warrior View Post
                    always amazes me about this question - EMP? - is it an EMP or solar event? - if an EMP has a nuke gone off already in an attack or an enhanced device in orbit - either way there's an attack under way and you need to get to a protected shelter IMMEDIATELY ....
                    IL, I believe Koppel was mentioning various ways not just EMP. Ones were hackers crashing the grid or some of the unexplained attacks on transformer stations like they were probes to determine effectiveness and response.
                    I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you!

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Cedar: It is great to see new members contributing. We appreciate your opinion, and your input.

                      In the post at the top of this page cwi555 said " As for taking out the entire country, it doesn't have to. Consider the aftermath of the world Trade centers. It doesn't have to take down the whole country. Just taking down the NE corridor would be enough. "

                      I question this, and wonder what others think. If am EMP is localized wouldn't that have the same effect as a natural disaster? Some other parts of the country may be affected, but life as we know it would go on.
                      The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary.

                      Everything happens for a reason. Sometimes the reason is you are stupid, and make bad decisions.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Morg,

                        To answer your question, IMO No and yes, I don't think it'd have the same effect as a weather event though.

                        I think it really depends on where and when an EMP was targeted and how large an impact area was. As you suggest, say an EMP or grid down hit the NE corridor and wiped out everything from Philly to Boston. That is one of the densest population areas in the country. Now imagine it's peak travel time, say around the holidays, when loads of people are traveling and vacationing. Depending on the type of event - was it hackers destroying the grid or was it an EMP from a high altitude nuke?

                        One thing I would like to mention for those that maybe aren't familiar, a lot of the nuke EMP info and supposed effects are based on very little real world knowledge, much of what we think we know is theory derived from some side effects witnessed from above ground nuke tests in the 50's that impacted part of the Hawaiian Islands. So we honestly do not know exactly will happen, it could impact a lot less things than we think or it could be the absolute end of all things electronic. For our discussion lets consider them all true.

                        Scenario 1: Hackers wipe out the grid

                        This isn't a simple or small fix. Hackers can potentially back load the network and burn up all kinds of transformers, switches and other gear than can take months or even years in some cases to manufacture new replacement components. So on the short end all kinds of things no longer work: lights, heat, water, sewer to start. Maybe they opened or closed damns so can flood out or potentially set a situation for a damn to breach.

                        Some things and places would have generators but that could be thousands or tens of thousands of places. How are you going to get fuel to them all? And that says nothing to the millions of generators in homes without gas. Think of only the number of hospitals and old folks homes in that wide of an area, now think of trying to consistently supply them with constant supply of diesel. How many million were already checked into hotels whose fuel ran out after the first 24 hours. Now all refrigeration in that area is gone, so much of the food will spoil unless it's cold enough and people use their heads to help get things cold and distribute it quickly, of course if its to cold things like canned food could freeze and rupture. Even if people get the food, how will they cook it. Many, many people in that area don't or can't cook now and eat out every meal. Give them a bag of rice or a frozen pork butt and do you think they'd know what to do with it. Even though cars and trucks still work the roads, already grid locked would be worse as people try to flee., unable to get gas the roads in and out are choked with cars out of gas. Can't get out, help can't get in.

                        Now that there is no power and since the hackers had a plan, the dozens of nuke plants in that region have been left running flat out with no cooling water and likely no way or no one to put the rods in to stop the reaction. It wouldn't take long for those to go into meltdown and give all the above fun a nice radioactive, holiday glow. obviously lots more happens in this but those are some of the highlights.

                        Scenario 2: EMP

                        Lets say this is due to a terrorist nuke, maybe it's Iran/ N' Korea who knows for sure but lets say they pop a nuke up from a ship off the eastern seaboard and it hits the same area as I mentioned above. Also lets say it's high enough that fallout isn't an issue but will those on the ground know that?

                        In this instance it hits like the flip of a switch. So now many of the same above issues occur but also now you have planes dropping out of the sky into residential and city centers causing massive destruction and terror, cars that were traveling along at high rates of speed, drivers loose control causing accidents. trains may derail...


                        So with that all laid out, now look at the difference in the majority of the people and the attitudes that are pervasive in that region. Oh and how many millions live in that impact zone? I just looked and it says on Wikipedia that as of 2010 from DC up thru Boston, what they called the megaopolis, houses around 49.6 million, around 17% of the nations population. The area I call out looks to have about 35 million in it; oh and lets not forget all those people in town for the holidays. Anyone want in the middle of that fun? Now how many of those living in that area do you think are even somewhat set to take care of their own needs for even a mere 72 hours? Also, those people aren't like those in TX we just saw a few weeks ago helping each other. Most of them, there won't be a lot of neighbor helping neighbor. Look at Hurricane Sandy and the way many of the people in those impacted areas acted, their true personalities came out, and most often prove their dog eat dog mental state. Remember the people dumpster diving on day 2 of Sandy? How hungry will u need to be before your fighting over dumpster scraps.
                        I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you!

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          CG: I agree with you 100%. Everything you described is a realistic consequence of an EMP. The event would be catastrophic, and the loss of life would be horrific in the area affected. Where we differ (maybe) is with the original statement that an event as you described would take the entire country down.

                          I still see an EMP on the NE corridor as a localized event. Sure, there will be a ripple effect. There will be a stoppage of commerce with that area. Goods that were manufactured would not be available. Certainly financial services and banking would be affected, but would the country shut down? IMHO I think not.

                          There would be a tremendous relief effort. Resources would be brought from other, unaffected parts of the country to help restore services. I would expect most, if not all, financial institutions have systems backed up, so if one area is down the data will not be lost. They can work from a different location. There is certainly a Continuance of Government plan in place, so it (the Federal Government) will continue to operate.

                          I have worked in the Solar Industry. I know how long it takes to get generators to run energy plants. Replacing those would take years. I also worked in the Nuclear Industry. I will say (as politically incorrect as it may sound) the Nuclear Industry is the safest industry I have ever worked in. I would bet there are already regulations/laws on the books that require Nuclear plants to have back-up systems to handle an EMP, and be able to safely shut down operations.

                          I don't disagree that in the area affected it would be a Zombie apocalypse. I just don't think it would shut the entire country down. My 2 cents.
                          The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary.

                          Everything happens for a reason. Sometimes the reason is you are stupid, and make bad decisions.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Morg, great points. To counter though on the financial side, assuming NYC is smack in the middle of the disaster, the financial industry would be effectively decapitated in the US. Sure there would be records backed up elsewhere but the stock exchange would be gone. So I'm thinking . Markets and wealth would effectively disappear overnight. Globally I think there would also be a massive financial tsunami that would sweep the world almost literally overnight; the world could be vaulted into an economic depression. How many countries hold USD as reserve currency? The dollar isn't to stable as it is so don't think it'd take a lot of this type of impact to make it completely collapse.

                            With a financial crippling, many companies would be out of business overnight. So then you have millions with out jobs or funds to feed their families. (Oh and how many grocery or food companies are still in biz.) So with those people trying to figure out how to feed their kids, I'm not sure how many people or businesses would be there to help provide any recovery efforts. Assuming that DC and the fed govt stands thru it all, they'd roll out the military and marshall law which wouldn't go down well at all as millions try to flee the NE and others try to rush there because that's home or they have love ones trapped there they think they'll somehow be able to rescue.

                            On the nuke side, maybe there are back ups but again it's always the unforeseen things, right. Fukashima was designed to never fail yet the best laid plans (and designs) of mouse and man hugely failed. So even if they all didn't fail it'd only take 1 or 2 to really muck things up. And think of all the various chemical plants scattered about making all kinds of nastiness that could be ripe for a massive accident.

                            I do think that in large part, big swaths of the country; more your rural areas; might fair ok. Though even they aren't perfect, how many of the younger generations living there have no clue of how to survive like their parents and grandparents could have? Then there are huge number of govt teet suckers who will suddenly not have their free money and ebit cards. Couple them with the heroine epidemic sweeping rural America; all those junkies with no way to get money nor anywhere to get their smack. Oh, and what will those prison wardens do with those thousands of inmates in their prisons? Will they literally lock them up and throw away the key or will the soft hearted ones throw open the doors and let their animals loose on the local populaces.

                            It might take longer to hit the midwest or west coast but who knows for sure. And maybe the impact on the grid in the NE could domino down and wipe the grid out the fragile guide nation wide.



                            I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you!

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Great discussion CG. I wish more would join in. Love to hear other points of view.
                              The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary.

                              Everything happens for a reason. Sometimes the reason is you are stupid, and make bad decisions.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                It is good to know more about EMP's. this is great info. There is so much hype out there about this that it is hard to know what will really happen or how to fully prepare for it. I agree with Morgan. Need more folks to chime in on this one.
                                Cedar thank you for such a great post.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X