NBC Preparedness

[methusaleh]

I did a search for NBC and found nothing on the forum previously. Looks like it may be the big white elephant in the room...

I do not know where to begin, perhaps this will become a sticky, I am just going to "freestyle" here with whatever comes to mind.

I have to remain cryptic, but the reason I am choosing to write this now is because we just had a meeting at work about something that has come up. And it got me thinking...

Certainly one of the most horrific things to think about is facing NBC hazards. My early prep days were dedicated to lots of NBC awareness because the Army kept pounding the importance into my head. I am honestly not sure why, since back then I was just an ordinary MP, in fact my area of expertise was POW interrogation. Much later in my military life, I was one of the founding members of the CERF-P team for the MA National Guard (combined Army and Air Force effort), we literally started from scratch and wrote the SOP as we went along, sourcing some things from civilian sources when nothing in the military inventory fit our needs. If there is one particular area of survival that I know a lot about, for some reason it just happens to be NBC preparedness, treatment, and recovery. Until this evening, however, I had not thought about it much since I left the Guard in MA in 2007.

So...thoughts? Questions? Comments? Let's start a discussion. I could probably write a book about this subject, I do not know where to begin! Shall we discuss personal preps? Good v bad equipment? Detection, decon, exposure treatment?

[Xolar]

NBC means what, sorry I was not in the mil.

[methusaleh]

Oh sorry. Nuclear, Biological, Chemical. Although each has its own concerns in and of itself, obviously.

[cwconnertx]

Nuclear, Biological, Chemical

Biological and Chemical are somewhat easier because the agent is easier to block, but can be harder to detect.

Nuclear shielding can only be accomplished with mass. Not lead shielding, aluminum foil, the rays penetrate and you need more material between you and them. The deep penetrating rays dissipate rapidly though. After that you need to avoid inhaling the dust or otherwise getting it in.

So the foil suits you see in the movies will not protect you from early radiation waves. It does keep those out in the radiation from tracking it back in though. They would be useful after the initial few days though. After the initial deep pentrating waves subside, something as thin as a sheet of paper can block alpha particles. Particle radiation simply doesn't penetrate, but it is still dangerous.

This is what i remember from my nuclear physics class several years ago, so feel free to check up on your own and let me know if my memory has failed me.

Also, air does not become radioactive, you do need to filter out and radioactive dust, but the air itself is ok to breathe. Otherwise I guess the rest wouldn't matter as air is hard to store an adequate supply of.

The most likely mode of attack would be a dirty bomb in my opinion rather than a full scale thermonuclear war. In that case the main thing is to stay indoors, sealed up tight for a while if you cannot get out of the area. I have a room set up with a filter to filter outisde air and thereby provide positive pressure in the room so that any small leaks around the outlets would be letting filtered air out and not dirty air in.

Just my .02

[cwconnertx]

Oh sorry. Nuclear, Biological, Chemical. Although each has its own concerns in and of itself, obviously.

Was typing my reply, but you go in first.

[Vicious Ignernt]

I live less than 1/4 mile from an Interstate, and less than a mile from a metro sewerage plant with LOTS of chlorine tanks, and a little over a mile from the one major railway coming into the county. I realized a while back I was totally unprepared for chemical situations such as tanker trucks with chemical, trains with chemicals. So, I purchased some respirators. One in the truck, one in the car, and one in the home.

[David M.]

From what I learned in the USMC, The NBC stuff scares the puddin' out of me. Those Nerve Agents are horrendous. I hope none of us get exposed to any of that mess. I remember the "fresh cut grass" scenario they warned us about. I did keep a gas mask though. Problem is, unless you know what you're dealing with, you could have the wrong filters in. Then you gotta deal with exposed skin. Let's hope it's not an issue.

[methusaleh]

From what I learned in the USMC, The NBC stuff scares the puddin' out of me. Those Nerve Agents are horrendous. I hope none of us get exposed to any of that mess. I remember the "fresh cut grass" scenario they warned us about. I did keep a gas mask though. Problem is, unless you know what you're dealing with, you could have the wrong filters in. Then you gotta deal with exposed skin. Let's hope it's not an issue.

David it's not that specific with the filters anymore; the C2A1 standard US issue filters "all known chemical and biological agents" so there's no color coding or whatnot like there was with the M17 series.

Yup I remember the M17s, with M13 filters, green rings were the best, then the black and yellow rings meant death under certain conditions! Not to mention changing filters in those as a major PITA!

[Biggirishmann]

I have been wanting to get a good gas mask setup for my family for a while now. I just did't know what to look for. Then I stumbled upon this site. http://www.approvedgasmasks.com/index.htmThey seem to have everything one could need or want.

[Zombie Axe]

I am with David on the Chemical and Biological aspects of scaring the crap outta me:eek: The way I see it, unless you have a safe room and are able to decon yourself, you are a goner!

It takes a bunch of support to stay in a compromised location and as a S&Per you will probably not have that support!

Still it is good to have the gear :) And training goes a long way!!!

[methusaleh]

Man, that NBC gear site reeks to me of marketing trickery and misinformation! I would stay far, far away. Not to mention their prices are so insanely high that I had to check to see if it was US dollars or something else. The name of the site alone is misleading, as different standards from different regulatory agencies apply to different pieces of equipment. Some masks on there I know are mass-produced commercial equipment that do not meet any standards. That's not to say they are not decent protection, but I am not going to bet my life on something that the manufacturer did not even feel comfortable enough about to pay for the necessary certification/approval process.

Here is a page a couple friends and I used to maintain. I still have the password for it but we have not kept up with it much after we all went our separate ways after a deployment:

http://www.angelfire.com/ma/speedlimit/nbc.html

If you need help getting your hands on good gear, you can PM me, I have contacts all over the place that can get almost anything you can imagine, from masks to vehicle decontamination systems.

Without bragging, I can honestly say that I know almost everything there is to know about NBC preparedness, decon, equipment, etc., even the foreign stuff, so feel free to ask me anything you please.

[Visinedrops]

General questions regarding Chemical and Biological decon:

1. How do you detect what is actually there (what chem/bio)?
2. Depending on chemical or biological contamination, what type of set-up would you need?
3. What chemicals can be readily purchased for decon of chemical weapons?
4. What type of symptoms can you expect to experience?
5. What protective measures, other than filtering, can you do to protect your home?

Just general questions, with probably hundreds of different answers, but generalized or vague answers will give a starting point.

[oly]

All kind of info.

http://www.tcem.org/csepp.htm

[oly]

Chemicals on our roads and railways for industrial use is just as dangerous and toxic

[methusaleh]

OK I will keep it to a "Cliff's Note" quick reply, if you want to know more just ask. Or pick up a book on the subject. My replies are embedded below...

General questions regarding Chemical and Biological decon:

1. How do you detect what is actually there (what chem/bio)?

Biological, unfortunately, is nearly impossible to detect until some creature(s) drop dead or start exhibiting strange behavior. For chemical detection and ID, the simplest way is US military issue M8 paper or M9 adhesive paper. Althought IIRC, M9 only detects the presence of an agent and does not identify it. M8 paper is like litmus paper, comes in little books, with a color-coded chart to tell you what agent it is exposed to. M8 works by blotting on a suspected spot, whereas M9 paper can be wrapped around an arm, a leg, or a piece of equipment, to detect aerosol agents in the air. There are also electronic, audible alarms, however obtaining replacement detector elements is pretty much impossible for civilians. Also there is the M256A1 chemical agent detector kit, which I suppose a civilian could be taught to use relatively easily. The M256 series consists of an OD green plastic case with foil-wrapped plastic cards inside. Each card has a bunch of little spots on it that detect different things. You have to follow the instructions (located on heavy cards inside the M256 kit's body) to use each one of the card's detection capabilities. Unfortunately I have been in the frightening position to see one of these used once in combat; fortunately, it did not detect anything, nor did any of our other detectors detect anything. It seemed VERY difficult to use an M256A1's detection card while wearing a MOPP suit, let alone practicing with your bare hands and unobstructed vision.


2. Depending on chemical or biological contamination, what type of set-up would you need?

For detection? I mentioned that above. For protection? At the very least a quality mask, hood, gloves, boots, and some kind of protective suit. Depending on what tasks you need to do, and how high the concentrations of agents that you may come into contact with, you will need different kinds of suits and auxiliary protective devices like an apron. For decon? There is no simple answer. Everything from dirt or water (if nothing else is around) to skin-safe decontaminating solutions (ie Ambergard 555), to corrosive and dangerous liquid vehicle decon products (ie DS2).

3. What chemicals can be readily purchased for decon of chemical weapons?

"Readily purchased" meaning in a typical hardware store, as opposed to Army-Navy place or through military sources...I would say looking at chemical decon, the best would be bleach (plain old bleach, no nice smells, no stain-fighting additives, etc), activated carbon, Fuller's earth (diamataceous earth-- I know I spelled that wrong), and water. Along with that, a good shovel, a scrubbing wand of some kind, and a way of spraying a pressurized stream of water (even just a squeezable plastic water bottle if that's all you have). The methods to use those items will take an entire separate post. Thankfully I have trained in how to decon with the very minimum materials available, both personnel and equipment, so I can pass that wisdom to you folks when I have the time. It is really not that difficult at all, and at the barest minimum only requires bleach and water.

4. What type of symptoms can you expect to experience?

This will vary with the agent in use, its quality, and its concentration. One of those questions that is best answered by reading. If I could recommend one book that should be easy to find, it would be "Breathe No Evil". I don't recall who wrote it, maybe Duncan Long, or who published it, but I do own a copy somewhere. Also the US Army Field Manual that used to be numbered 3-5 NBC Decontamination, I don't know if it has been re-numbered, but it used to have a pull-out chart listing different agents and their symptoms. Now that I own a flatbed scanner, perhaps I can find that manual and scan those pages for you folks.

5. What protective measures, other than filtering, can you do to protect your home?

It is darn near impossible to "NBC proof" a home unless it was purposefully constructed to resist things from the time it was built. You are talking having the capability to create air-tight seals over the entire building, have a two-part airlocked entry-exit system, set up a working filtering system that moves enough cubic feet of air to keep the occupants safe, while allowing easy changing and disposal of the filters, and more. To actually be able to be inside a building with no protective equipment on one's body, while dangerous concentrations of chemical agents are outside, is a goal that not even I have, it is just too much to ever expect. Even in the military, only small shelters are set up like that, usually just tactical communications or medical shelters.

Just general questions, with probably hundreds of different answers, but generalized or vague answers will give a starting point.

There you go, enjoy. When I have more time I will cover hasty decon in more detail, and try to dig up more info on "Breathe No Evil."