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  • #16
    Well that certainly help a whole bunch. Since I would have to fly withing shotgun range, it looses it's value. The noise factor coupled with the low altitude would make it a nice clay pigeon, abate a very expensive clay. The thermal scope is great but then again won't let you know they are there, until they are close enough to snipe you. Granted it would allow me to snipe back but the first to get off a shot, stands the best chance of winning the shoot out. Well back to the drawing board. I watched the video and was very disappointed in the resolution. Thank you for the link, that proved the need for something else.
    It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener in a war!

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    • #17
      I had the same exact thoughts as you, but then changed my thinking after a lot of reading. The SHTF events in Bosnia and Venezuela are great study tools and there is no reason to think anything significant would be much different here.

      I was thinking of SHTF as a war zone and that I wanted to live my life and survive SHTF in a comfy home in the middle of that war zone, so what equipment do I need? Well, that's just not thinking realistically as far as I was concerned after lots of study.

      The threat in SHTF isn't some highly trained sniper in a hide at 1000 yards, well.. not unless your last name is Trump or Obama anyhow. The real threat and the only realistic threat, so far as my research goes, are the following: 1) The father who has 4 kids and is watching them starve to death and decides to ignore his morality 2) A small group of 10 or 15 thugs "taking what they want" who have somehow made it this far into the countryside without being killed off one by one as they go. 3) Your neighbor who you're not helping.

      That's it. And in all 3 cases, I can't imagine any of these folks being stupid enough to go about their nefarious activities in daylight hours.

      You know what my thermal is mounted on? A Ruger 10/22 with a match grade barrel and a suppressor, and is zeroed at 75 yards. The gun is so quiet, I can shoot a rabbit at 50 yards, and then shoot the rabbit that was 10 feet away from that rabbit when I blew the first one's head off.. Because the second rabbit never heard the first shot. The darn trigger click makes more noise than the muzzle.

      Had my wife stand behind the brick garage and I placed a piece of plywood and a grapefruit 15 feet from her. (she was protected by the brick structure). I stood back about 40 yards. She said the only thing she heard was the bullet slamming into the objects, and the grapefruit didn't make any more noise than it would if you dropped it while shopping.

      My next test will have to wait until next year's hunting season. After I get my deer, I'm going to save the head and do the same test again because I want to know what a 22lr subsonic sounds like when it hits bone and brain.

      My defensive measures are by no means perfect, but reality is never perfect either. All we can do is hope for the best and prepare for the worst. Secure the house, set perimeter alarms, a concealed sandbag position, and always have a sentry looking around with thermal or NV.


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      • #18
        I agree with your deductions. I do think the most likely event will a copy of the VZ melt down. I am not worried so much about the 1,000 yard sniper as the 300 yard hungry hunter type. It does not take much to hide under low shrub brush. Next month I am purchasing the Ruger Precision Rim fire. That will be a double duty rifle. It will act a a long distance trainer, learning to read wind and adjust for bullet drop. The second duty will be the same as your suppressed sniper weapon, for close in work. I have not settled on my primary long distance caliber yet. The rifles will be a Thompson Center Dimension series rifle but since it has interchangeable barrels, I don't have to pick a caliber right off. There are 10 calibers to choose from and each barrel / caliber change is only about $200. The T/C Dimension is guaranteed to shoot 1 MOA right out of the box and I am sure that can be improved upon it. I really like the ability to change calibers, it offers more chances to barter for ammo / brass during the rebuilding phase. I am really glad that primer are reasonably priced and do not take up much storage space. Reloading does need the primers. You can shift to certain cartridges (357 for example) and use home made black powder and cast bullets but the primers are not something many could make at home. I do plan to have a 357 pistol and lever action firearm. I look forward to your future suppressor testing. It is difficult to get actual sound levels from YT videos.

        Now we are going to need to go back to the topic of Perimeter Alarms. In close is not a real problems, wireless game cameras and motion detectors will work. Detecting intruders long distance is going to be a problem. Yes trip alarms are a possibility but that is hit or miss at best. The 10 to 15 thugs and it probably will get tripped. Just one hungry father, could easily be a miss. The neighbors would probable fall in the middle as to the numbers of intruders. I had already planned on I.R cameras with motion detection around the compound. Adding a few extra I.R. lights to extend the range of the cameras but that will not help until they are close to the compound, which is what I really want to avoid. I would prefer all my confrontation to be as far from the compound as possible. Ambush scenario, then fall back away from the compound. Many thugs do have military experience and I don't want to test my skills against theirs. I would rather snipe, fall back and then ambush again. Repeat the process twice and then start to circle in alternating directions. I want to stay unpredictable. I do not want to be involved in a fire fight. Now as for the daylight vs. night attacks. In my rural location the attacks most likely will be daylight. It is dangerous to try walking around in the desert at night without lights. If they are equipped with NV or Thermal, then I will really have a problem, cause they will be more than just thugs or the hungry father. I don't see that as being too probable. If they were that well equipped, then they would probably have their own supplies too. --- Prepper type. Now if we are looking at my urban location, then the attack will most likely be at night and from fairly close range. That is where the NV and Thermal monocular will pay off big time. The suppressed 22 will then come into play. Again a hit and run tactic. Shoot, fall back and shoot again, circle and shoot again, circle and shoot again. That should deter most. Again the bodies could become a problem.

        Well more research is required.
        It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener in a war!

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        • #19
          I think you can make primers from Strike-Anywhere type matches. You pull the anvil out of the primer, use a flat head punch to remove the firing pin divot. Then, using a pestle and motor, you gently grind up the heads of some strike-anywhere type matches and load the primer with them.

          Check youtube. I remember seeing a guy do it and then testing it and it worked just fine.

          As for the bad guy raiders, no system you or I can afford is going to be perfect. Using a combination of lots of perimeter alarms, caltrops, and a sentry with thermal, you can only hope for the best.

          If you are alone in a full blown SHTF, you are screwed since you have to sleep. If I was alone, I would use all the above (except the sentry obviously) AND make a hidden sleeping location, preferably underground, and hide my supplies in various buried locations.. I would also booby trap the crap out of the home.
          Lay out a golden egg for them to find with a hidden omni-directional energy discharge to ruin their day.

          Hell, you could even get ethical about it and put up signs that the area is booby trapped. Who the hell would enter a property with signs like that?
          Last edited by Murphy; 01-05-2019, 12:46 AM.

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          • #20
            I think I did watch a few make your own primers but was not super impressed. I would rather store a 200,000 (only 200 boxes) primers than trust my life to a home made primer. Now granted I would not want to buy that many at once but it would not break the bank to add 20,000 per year. That is a unrealistic number but you get my point. You are talking $30 per 1,000. Now how many rounds would you likely used in a SHTF event. Even if you had to hunt every day and fired 5 shot (really bad hunter) per day, that is only 1,825 primers. $54.75 for a year. The first 20,000 primers would last 10.958 years. The 200,000 primers is going to last over 100 years and that is with a really bad hunter. I really don't see the need for tempting fate with home made primers. The brass is going to be a bigger problem and cost. There is a limit to the number of times a brass case can be reloaded. For the same number of shots (1,825) x $0.25 per case divided by 5 reloads, that is $91.25 per year, or almost twice as much. The same 10 year supply will cost more than $915.50. The primers are a deal and take up less space to store. I would vacuum seal them, for safe measure. The lead I will toss in as scavenged material. There will be a lot of wheel weights and other lead items to collect lead from.

            Now when talking about the needed supplies to reload and the limited future availability of these components, It might not hurt to have a few muzzle loading rifles and pistols. Percussion cap or flint lock. The percussion type will eventually run out of caps but by then it would be worth trying home made percussion caps. The flint lock would last for a couple hundred years until technology returned. The percussion caps would run about $146 for the same aprox. 10 years. It is actually almost 11 years worth but I like to keep it simple Anyway, with a good hunter you are really looking at close to 20 years of primers and brass with just the 20,000 primers and 4,000 brass cases.

            Now back to the perimeter problem. You are correct there does not seem to be solid long distance detection system that is cost effective for us penny pincher's. The standard defenses you mentioned will have to do until something better comes along. Home made claymores would be nice but that is a topic for another discussion.
            It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener in a war!

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            • #21
              Wow.. you're prepping for some really long term SHTF.

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              • #22

                Here's a drone idea,
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYLGhVPp8lw

                Only problem with it is the lack of a gun port.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Murphy View Post
                  Wow.. you're prepping for some really long term SHTF.
                  Well I will try again. System lost my reply, when I tried to use multiple quotes.

                  I do think the collapse will last a very long time. Using VZ as an example, it has been going down hill for a many years and no let up in sight. I figure it will take 10 to 20 years to halt our downward trend and another 10 to 20 years to make a recovery. Rural folks are going to need a large supply of primers, brass and have the reloading equipment to last out that amount of time. I am betting the government will shut down all ammo and gun manufacturing companies in the interest of National Security. A disarmed population is easier to control. In 2020 I plan to start reloading and will start stocking up on primers and brass. Storing gun powder is another problem. 40 to 100 years of powder is a huge investment and safety hazard. Still working out the logistic of that situation.Granted you are only talking 3 or 4 cents a round for gun powder but it all adds up. I watched a video that calculated reloading large caliber ammo would average about $0.30 per round, so that is my cost base. Match grade bullets will of course drive that cost up a bit but those rounds would be restricted to very long range shooting and a small part of the stored ammo.Rural folks can grow food but it is tough to make brass and primers.
                  It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener in a war!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Murphy View Post
                    Here's a drone idea,
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYLGhVPp8lw

                    Only problem with it is the lack of a gun port.
                    Got a big chuckle out of the video.
                    It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener in a war!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by tmttactical View Post

                      Well I will try again. System lost my reply, when I tried to use multiple quotes.

                      I do think the collapse will last a very long time. Using VZ as an example, it has been going down hill for a many years and no let up in sight. I figure it will take 10 to 20 years to halt our downward trend and another 10 to 20 years to make a recovery. Rural folks are going to need a large supply of primers, brass and have the reloading equipment to last out that amount of time. I am betting the government will shut down all ammo and gun manufacturing companies in the interest of National Security. A disarmed population is easier to control. In 2020 I plan to start reloading and will start stocking up on primers and brass. Storing gun powder is another problem. 40 to 100 years of powder is a huge investment and safety hazard. Still working out the logistic of that situation.Granted you are only talking 3 or 4 cents a round for gun powder but it all adds up. I watched a video that calculated reloading large caliber ammo would average about $0.30 per round, so that is my cost base. Match grade bullets will of course drive that cost up a bit but those rounds would be restricted to very long range shooting and a small part of the stored ammo.Rural folks can grow food but it is tough to make brass and primers.
                      You are obviously preparing for a far longer time frame than I am. Personally, I don't think its realistically possible as a fundamental change in our governing principles won't be staved off by a few folks who have stockpiled weapons. I just don't think that's going to happen, but its not like I have a crystal ball or anything.

                      My buddy does have reloading equipment and dies for 40 cal and some other rounds so I do save the Pb from any source that comes my way.

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                      • #26
                        Surveillance and spy drone... They'll never know you're there!
                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdwMkC0egNs

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                        • #27

                          Yes I am prepping for a very long social reset. The way I figure it, if it does not last as long, then I just have extra supplies for many years to come. If I am right in my estimations, then I am well covered. The governing principals will be a distant memory once the grid goes down or we turn into VZ. Starving people lose their principals along with their waist size. Reloading is the way to go unless your have an awful lot of money. $0.30 vs. $100 per round makes a real big difference when you are talking thousands of rounds. Even without a SHTF event, careful reloading is a way to increase range time and improve accuracy. VZ was the riches country in South America, just a few years ago, now they are quickly become the crime capital of the world. With our huge city populations, that know nothing of food growing or even from where their food comes from, it will quickly turn into a nightmare. Welfare and no food reserves. No jobs and not welfare = riots. When the government can't fix the problems, then the ciaos will quickly grow. Cities will burn and nobody will be able to stop it. The police will turn to stealing to feed their families. The military will become unofficial raiders, to feed themselves and their families. It is not guess, it is happening in VZ now. How long would you guess it would take for our nation to completely collapse? How long would it take for our country to be rebuilt? That is the time span I think preppers should be planning for. Now if it is a sudden grid down, then the time span will shorten but the cost in lives will greatly increase. A fast SHTF will not allow the urbanites enough time to adapt to the changing situation. A slow fade will allow some urbanites to change their thinking and the way they are reacting to this new life. In any case it is not going to be a pretty picture.
                          It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener in a war!

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                          • #28
                            I think having a reloading setup is a great idea and I'd love to get one where I can cast my own rounds and reload 40cal and 5.56mm.

                            I might do that in the future but I have other things to do first.

                            I seriously doubt the police in the USA would turn to stealing food as they'd be killed off quite quickly. One thing the USA has going for it in that regard is that we are a gun culture.

                            I wanted to argue the whole Venezuela thing because I was hoping to find some avenue or point that separates us from anything relevant to their situation. I compared population density and distribution, education, religion, culture, racial diversity, agricultural and industrial metrics, and a variety of other data sets. Its quite troubling, as the USA, except for size and volume, is very similar. They have about 80 people per sq mile, we have about 80 people per sq mile. Their literacy rates are slightly lower than ours but only slightly, overall educational levels are very similar.

                            The biggest difference, and fortunately one of the most significant differences, is their government corruption index. Venezuela is off the charts where the USA is near the bottom. As much as the left wingers and right wingers here in the USA like to call each other criminals and dirty, the fact is, when compared to other nations, the USA is among the lowest in corruption.

                            I don't think a collapse in the USA would mirror Venezuela.. I think the beginning three to six months would probably be about the same, but our population and our culture of entitlement and self-superiority would blow up and accelerate the decline far quicker than Venezuela.

                            Venezuela is like a pile of green sticks and twigs that someone lights on fire, whereas the USA is more like a pile with a can of gasoline sitting on top. One burns slowly and just smolders, the other does the same until it hits the can of gas.

                            Venezuela, after several years of decline, still hasn't reached the "burn it all down" phase where chaos rules, and I'm beginning to think they never will. If Venezuela happened in the USA, I think the skyline would be glowing orange.
                            Last edited by Murphy; 01-06-2019, 02:02 PM.

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                            • #29
                              I do agree the speed of destruction would be a bit faster, yes we are a gun country but the first thing to happen in a national SHTF event, the government will declare Marshall Law and then start closing down all gun and ammo manufacturing. The next thing the government will do is nationalize all food, fuel and utility companies, in the interest of "The People". When the looting and riots start in EVERY American city , there will not be enough police to stop the carnage. Heck, the police can't even stop the killing in Chicago, what are they going to do when the riots are city wide? As for the cops, a starving family will take precedence over their oath of office. In VZ the black market is flourishing and the cops will deal with the thugs to keep their families fed. Just human nature. The same will happen to the military. The problem is that too many feel entitled and the realties of the situation will be too far stretched for them to adapt fast enough. We have too many living too far from their needed supplies. No jobs, no welfare and no protection and the results are predictable. The collapse will start out as a recession and the government will pour money into the solution. Then it will advance into a depression and again the government will pour more money into it. The the collapse will hit, there will not be enough money to hold the line. Just like VZ the inflation rate will be huge, mind numbing. The last recession lasted 8 years, so my estimation maybe spot on. Think 8 years for recession, 4 to 8 years of depression and then 10 years to complete collapse. Then you have the massive die off, and then the rebuilding phase. I think we are looking at an easy 60 years of turmoil, on an unprecedented scale. There will not be any foreign aid coming our way, as all the other countries will be in the same fix or even worse. Too much global trading and the domino effect will kick in full force. VZ has not reached the :Burn It Down" phase simply because the government disarmed them before it got this bad. Some of our government (states, cities) are trying to disarm their citizens but the federal government is going to have to wait until the SHTF first. Laws and economics (special taxes) will be used to disarm or severely limit the availability of ammo and then firearms. When a 22lr costs $5, and the other ammo is 2 to 5 times more, how many will be buying ammo? The concept is not new and it will work. Check out the new ammo laws in California. You have to register every time you want to buy ammo and if the caliber you want to buy does not match a firearm you have registered with the state, then your purchase will be denied. California has also build in a catch 22. Resident cannot buy ammo out of state and bring it back and out of state people cannot bring in ammo. As result I cannot go visit my son in California and go shooting, because I can't legally bring in my ammo and my son can't buy it because he does not have a firearm registered in that caliber.That is the method the government will use to disarm the citizens, prior to the SHTF.

                              I don't really care if the SHTF event last 10 years or 40 years. I plan for the longest duration I can afford. Now I will not live long enough to survive the SHTF but I will have set my family up for a reasonable future. Far enough out to not be of interest to the government or any neighbors. Home grown food, off grid electricity for as long as the batteries last and the ability for them to live without power. They will not live in the lap of luxury but they will survive.
                              It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener in a war!

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