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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sourdough View Post

    I have had this exact same discussion many times on several different forums.........and nearly everyone thinks exactly like you about this. I just don't understand, that thinking. I guess there is one or two generations who have been so conditioned to believe that all water has to be treated.
    The reason nearly everyone seems to disagree with you is because you're confusing your supposed built up immunity with the purity of the water.

    If you injected yourself with snake venom long enough to become immune, that doesn't mean the snakes are no longer venomous.

    Regardless of your claims about your own health, surface waters are never "pure" and it's risky to drink from them without some treatment.


    Comment


    • #17
      Maybe preppers should spend less time masturbating about guns and knives, and toys for their bug'out bag, and spend serious time hardening their digestive track.

      Hmmmm have I not said dozens of times how about 30 or 40 years ago prepping and survival studies made a very bad turn in the wrong direction.....Hmmmm, I think did say that
      Last edited by Sourdough; 11-06-2018, 02:42 PM.
      One day you eat the chicken.....next day the left-over chicken.....next five days you eat chicken feathers, head and feet.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by GrizzlyetteAdams View Post
        In case of nuclear contamination of sources of drinking water, I am considering this type of filter:

        https://www.berkeywater.com/news/a-l...-contaminants/

        (I like this one for portability: https://www.berkeywater.com/go-berke...berkey-primer/)

        Test results: http://berkeywaterkb.com/black-berke...-test-results/

        Some helpful tips for storage and optimum shelf life: http://berkeywaterkb.com/how-should-...ir-shelf-life/


        https://www.berkeyfilters.com/berkey-answers/berkey-water-filter-faq/


        When do I need to replace the Black Berkey filter elements in my system?

        Use one of the 2 methods below:

        Preferred Method
        1. Take the number of Black Berkey filtering elements in your system and multiply it by 3,000. This number will be the (Total Life) in gallons.
        2. Estimate the average amount of water you filter through your Berkey per day. This number will be the (Total Use) in gallons.
        3. Then simply divide the (Total Life) by the (Total Use). This number represents how many days your filter will effectively treat your water before needing to replace them.
        4. As a reminder, with a permanent marker write the date that you calculated the need for Berkey replacement filters on the bottom of your unit.

        Example: If you have a two filter Big Berkey and your used 4 gallons of water per day. You would multiply 2 (#of filters) by 3000 = 6000 (Total Life), then divide 6000 by 4 (total use) = 1500 days the filters will last, That's a little over four years!
        The Black Berkey filters in your unit will never stop working. The rate that the filters produce water will slow down. This is an indication that the filter needs to be cleaned. This brings us to the second method. If after cleaning your elements they do not filter any faster; it is time to replace them.

        Black Berkey®

        "...In a crisis scenario, such as an accidental or weaponized nuclear incident, it is important to have a survival water filter truly capable of removing or greatly reducing radiological contaminants at the ready.

        In such cases, the primary objective for those in a contaminated hot zone would be to get to a non-contaminated zone as quickly as possible. Therefore, you would want to choose a solution that fits the following requirements:
        • Extreme tested to demonstrate effectiveness
        • Portable, so it can easily travel with you and your family
        • No electricity or water pressure required to operate the filter
        • Capable of producing sufficient water for your group in a timely manner

        As we will discuss, Berkey ® Systems using Black Berkey® Purification Elements are the ideal choice for everyone considering a gravity-fed, survival water filter.


        For those who are unfortunate enough to be caught in a radiological contamination zone, it is recommended that the Black Berkey ® Purification Elements be replaced as soon as is feasible post-evacuation. This is because the more radiological contaminants the elements remove, the more radioactive the elements themselves become. Consider having backup sets of Black Berkey®Purification Elements in your emergency kits or bags at all times to make the switch quickly.

        Some filter elements may show strong results in a test using one water sample. In contrast, NMCL believes that it is vitally important that the reduction capability of our Black Berkey ® Purification Elements be tested over time. Therefore, Berkey® Systems conducted the radiological contaminant reduction testing of the Black Berkey® Purification Elements to 50 gallons; an extreme situation and test.

        Our approach provides information on the rate of decline in efficiency, and verifies that the rate of decline is not significant. For example, in our Gross Alpha Reduction Test, the efficiency reduces from 99.2% to 98.7% after 50 gallons. This represents a reduction in efficiency of only 0.5% (1/2 of 1%) after 50 gallons, which likely indicates that at the end of the 3,000 gallon life of the element, the reduction level should still be around 70%. Also, take a look at our Gross Beta Reduction Test and Uranium Reduction Test, both of which similarly demonstrate the reduction capabilities of the Black Berkey® Purification Elements over time.

        Your best protection against radiologicals in water is to have a water purification system that has been rigorously tested to remove radionuclides to below detectable levels. In a crisis situation, Berkey ® Water Purification Systems are portable, travel easily, and function without electricity or water pressure, making them the ultimate survival tool.
        I can't imagine a system that relies on non-replentishable filters being the way to go when the SHTF.
        Contact Alert - https://alert.simdif.com

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        • #19
          I agree! But will have this system (along with a spare filter or two) in my stash to use only in case of nuclear contamination. It will also take care of all the other nasties (virus/bacterial/etc) as well. One filter can be used for four years (@ 4 gallons of water a day).
          Genius is making a way out of no way.

          Comment


          • #20
            "Maybe preppers should spend less time masturbating about guns and knives, and toys for their bug'out bag, and spend serious time hardening their digestive track. Hmmmm have I not said dozens of times how about 30 or 40 years ago prepping and survival studies made a very bad turn in the wrong direction.....Hmmmm, I think did say that" I'm pretty sure that has nothing to do with whether or not the water is really pure.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Sourdough View Post
              Maybe preppers should spend less time masturbating about guns and knives, and toys for their bug'out bag, and spend serious time hardening their digestive tract.
              No amount of "hardening of the digestive tract" will protect against human pathogens such as typhus, cholera, hepatitis, etc.... all of which can be waterborne.

              Unfortunately, it is logistically impossible for everyone who has the desire to live in a true wilderness situation (far removed from risks of human pathogens). So most of the survival-minded population needs to prepare for serious water purification.
              Genius is making a way out of no way.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Snyper708 View Post
                I'm pretty sure that has nothing to do with whether or not the water is really pure.
                That is only a problem for you with your addiction to "PURIFIED" water, to avoid instant horrific death. Me....... I'll have lots of "NOT" perfectly pure surface water to enjoy.

                So tell me does it "SUCK" for you knowing you have a compromised digestive system.......???
                One day you eat the chicken.....next day the left-over chicken.....next five days you eat chicken feathers, head and feet.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Sourdough, please consider post #21. Considering your unique location, human pathogens are a huge factor that you will likely never have to deal with.
                  Last edited by GrizzlyetteAdams; 11-07-2018, 02:09 PM.
                  Genius is making a way out of no way.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by GrizzlyetteAdams View Post
                    Sourdough, please consider post #21. Considering your unique location, human pathogens are a huge factor that you will likely never have to deal with.
                    True..........However if I had children, Knowing what I have experienced, I would raise them so as to harden their systems.

                    I often think about a massive SHTF, and 20 million or 50 million Mexicans push north into America...........and as a result 20 or 40 million Americans, have to escape ahead of that wave. The Mexicans can drink and do in fact drink water that would kill Americans short on medicines. Would be classic survival of the fittest.
                    Last edited by Sourdough; 11-07-2018, 02:52 PM.
                    One day you eat the chicken.....next day the left-over chicken.....next five days you eat chicken feathers, head and feet.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      In terms of hardening one's self, that makes sense--kind of the digestive tract version of staying in shape. Just like being able to hike with a pack makes sense because depending on cars and such in SHTF situations would be unwise, so with building up an abilty to drink water that might be somewhat less than pure is a good back up to devices that make the water pure.

                      But in terms of devices to purify, I just came across this while browsing the Lehman's site.

                      https://www.lehmans.com/product/solar-hydro-backpack/

                      It's a bit pricey, but I'm guessing the concept will have a pretty broad appeal so probably there'll be similar versions soon, hopefully at lower prices. (Or is that already the case?)

                      As far as the dependence on filters, yeah. That'll be a problem in a post-apocalypse world, but same with dehydrated food and so on. That's not going to last forever either, but it'll be nice to have for as long as it does last. If the food or the filter lasts long enough, maybe things will have settled into new patterns for providing those needs--or we'll have toughned up our lower G.I. to deal with less-pure water by then.

                      Lastly, what was said about having to deal with chemicals seems very true. Here in Michigan we're discovering that a LOT of rural areas have PFAS contaminated ground water. Where people used to be ok with well water, now they're having to get bottled water or connect to municipal supplies.

                      If I'm remembering right, Berkey filters were good at filtering water in Toledo, back when the algae-type blooms in Lake Erie made the water bad there from cyano-bacteria. Do Berkey filters get PFAS, too?

                      There are naturally occuring version of contaminants--aren't some wells bad due to naturally occuring arsenic?, but the idea that we've got bad ground water now, out in various rural areas, from having chemicals dumped in one way or another, is troubling. I hadn't realized it, but I thought of that kind of toxic contamination as happening in urban areas, where there'd been factories, etc. An unconscious assumption of mine was that the countryside is clean and pure because it's away from such man-made spills and such. Just heard a news story about coal ash being a pretty potent source of toxic crud, too, and from my very limited knowledge, coal-ash is stored in rural areas. Is there a filter that cleans that kind of crud? Does letting water sit for a while 'settle' those impurities?

                      Too many questions for one post, but this stuff is all connected. Thanks for info on any of the above.
                      Been there, done that. Then been there again several times, because apparently I never learn.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Remember Domoic Acid and related toxins from 'red tides' may become airborne. IIRC, several researchers and assorted fishermen suffered 'cognitive problems' from inhalation...

                        ( Slightly OT, Hitchcock's infamous 'The Birds', adapted from a Du Maurier short story, was loosely based on events in a small Californian town in 1961 after local sea-birds feasted on fish contaminated by a red tide... )

                        Okay, that's sea water, which you will not be drinking, but may affect eg salmon you trade.

                        Per the threads on forest fires, volcanic ash etc, surface water quality may need a decade to recover unto 'safe', meanwhile fluctuate wildly. Worse, should maintenance fail at a mining site, you may lose entire river ecosystem. Drawing water from a well set into its flood-plain gravels would be a no-no. Even if the water seems palatable, many chemicals are cumulative poisons...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Schneb View Post
                          But in terms of devices to purify, I just came across this while browsing the Lehman's site.

                          https://www.lehmans.com/product/solar-hydro-backpack/

                          It's a bit pricey, but I'm guessing the concept will have a pretty broad appeal so probably there'll be similar versions soon, hopefully at lower prices. (Or is that already the case?)
                          I am not impressed. That is a lot of $$$$ just for a system that powers water through a standard filter (which does not remove nuclear contamination). No information is provided regarding how long the filter will last before replacements are needed. The manufacturer's name is not mentioned; only that it is made in Texas. I have not been able to find any real peer reviews on the internet about it, but did find one other company that sells it (safecastle.com). Sounds like a small company just starting out...

                          When it comes to my health, there is no way will I put my trust in an unknown or little-known brand.




                          Originally posted by Schneb View Post
                          Lastly, what was said about having to deal with chemicals seems very true. Here in Michigan we're discovering that a LOT of rural areas have PFAS contaminated ground water. Where people used to be ok with well water, now they're having to get bottled water or connect to municipal supplies.

                          If I'm remembering right, Berkey filters were good at filtering water in Toledo, back when the algae-type blooms in Lake Erie made the water bad there from cyano-bacteria. Do Berkey filters get PFAS, too?

                          YES, and then some...


                          Here's an article addressing the contaminated water problem in Michigan...but unfortunately these same chemicals affect all of us:

                          https://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf..._should_y.html


                          If you're reading this, chances are great you've got PFCs in your blood...

                          ...Because of their ubiquity in cookware, carpet, textiles, upholstery, mattresses, food packaging and firefighting foams, almost all Americans have been exposed to and accumulated some volume of PFCs in their body.

                          One PFC, perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA), was found in blood serum in 99 percent of the U.S. general population between 1999 and 2012....
                          (Now, that just makes me mad!)

                          Anyway, here's some words from Berkey about these contaminants:

                          https://theberkey.com/blogs/water-fi...drinking-water

                          PFC and PFOA are assimilated through the skin and in addition through drinking water. Along these lines, the main filtration system that will totally shield you from those dangerous chemicals is the Berkey Water Filtration Systems. These poisons are viably expelled via carbon block filtration. Any of the entire Berkey systems offered will filter PFCs and PFOAs.

                          It utilizes the most developed filtration innovation, so it filters the vastest scope of contaminants. PFCs and PFOAs aren't the main poisons that aren't regulated by the EPA, so there might be different risky and unknown poisons hiding in your water supply. The Berkey Water Filtration Systems gives you the most conceivable assurance against any unknown poisons in your water supply.
                          I believe it because Berkey filters have gone through a wide variety of rigorous tests over many years, and the system has a solid reputation.

                          However, because there ARE too many fake copycat filters out there that look exactly like the Real Deal (I will explore this in a future post), I would buy ONLY from the manufacturer.

                          The only drawback for the Berkey is that while long-lasting, the system is not sustainable as simply boiling water or even the SODIS method. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_water_disinfection)



                          Last edited by GrizzlyetteAdams; 11-12-2018, 03:31 AM.
                          Genius is making a way out of no way.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Schneb View Post

                            There are naturally occuring version of contaminants--aren't some wells bad due to naturally occuring arsenic?, but the idea that we've got bad ground water now, out in various rural areas, from having chemicals dumped in one way or another, is troubling. I hadn't realized it, but I thought of that kind of toxic contamination as happening in urban areas, where there'd been factories, etc. An unconscious assumption of mine was that the countryside is clean and pure because it's away from such man-made spills and such. Just heard a news story about coal ash being a pretty potent source of toxic crud, too, and from my very limited knowledge, coal-ash is stored in rural areas. Is there a filter that cleans that kind of crud? Does letting water sit for a while 'settle' those impurities?
                            Berkey also claims to filter coal ash contaminates.

                            Yes, it may be a good idea to let the water sit to allow some impurities to settle, but I would also pre-filter all water, regardless of contaminant type, before running it through any method of water purification. This practice will also help increase the life of any commercial filter you may use.

                            I have in my personal kit, finely woven silk cloth which is one of the best type of fabric for pre-filtering water. A good piece of tightly woven silk has a reputation for filtering a lot “cleaner” than most fabrics (see below). I also prefer it over cotton for other reasons as well: it dries super fast, and takes up almost no space in my hiking/camping gear (silk can be folded and fit into a ridiculously small space). Although I use it only as a pre-filter, I wouldn’t hesitate to use a tightly-woven silk or tightly-woven cotton cloth as an expedient filter IF for some reason, my store-bought filter was lost or destroyed, or if I was not in a position to boil water.

                            https://www.fic.nih.gov/News/GlobalH...er-filter.aspx

                            https://inhabitat.com/ecouterre/wome...ainst-cholera/

                            http://www.appropedia.org/Fabric_Filter

                            Quote:
                            For the choice in fabric, it is necessary that it be tightly woven, and that it is made from a stiff material (any stretchiness will allow the gaps between the fibers to widen, and the water to seep through without being properly filtered). One material which is most commonly suitable for this purpose is silk, because unlike synthetic materials, silk fabrics do not exhibit a wide range of flexibility.
                            (Also, it is easy enough to compare cotton and silk's "stretchiness" by pouring water through the cloths and observing the difference.)

                            There was another lab test involving seven different types of cloth, including silk (which got the highest marks for filtration), but I can't seem to find it again with a quick search. But I did find this interesting comment on Quora.com.

                            https://www.quora.com/Which-fabric-c...ater-instantly

                            Quote:
                            ... some months I went through this experiment in our lab in search of affordable filters for poor people . The silk fabric did the best job of filtering the water. It had the lowest visual turbidity at one percent. The silk had a tight weave, and It was observed that it had an average of a ten minute gravity flow rate through the fabric and the net flow was twenty-two mL. Although silk did the best job, the price is a concern. But if we reuse the silk clothes after proper sterilisation optimising it's life, it can be used.


                            Genius is making a way out of no way.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Grizzlyette: I would be very careful about anybody making claims to be able to remove radioactive contamination. You may remove the contamination from your water, but I think you will end up with a radioactive filter. You may want to check with a hospital Radiation Safety Officer or a Health Physicist. Radioactivity has to decay at its own half life. Removing it from one place will just put it in another. I will see if I can find more info, but you may want to ask around.

                              I submitted a question to this site. We will see if the answer.

                              http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/ask.cfm
                              Last edited by Morgan101; 11-12-2018, 12:02 PM.
                              The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary.

                              Everything happens for a reason. Sometimes the reason is you are stupid, and make bad decisions.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Yes I agree 100%. I am looking forward to hearing what answers you get.

                                As I mentioned in post #4: In case of nuclear contamination of sources of drinking water, I am considering the Black Berkey.

                                So far, this type of filter has impressed me more than the others, but...(there's always that big BUT, lol), by the nature of the radioactive beast, ANY filter will naturally have its limitations.

                                Here is a copy of an email that I sent to Berkey. I am waiting for a response.


                                ----------------------------------

                                I have some questions regarding the ability of the Black Berkey to remove radioactive contamination: I may be able to remove the contamination from the water, but as can be expected, the filter itself will become radioactive. As mentioned in the link below, it is suggested your website to replace the filter “as soon as possible.” I realize that much depends upon the degree of contamination, but it would be helpful to have some idea of how soon, or after (x) gallons of use, filter replacement may be needed.


                                Do you have any suggestions or approximate guidelines other than "as soon as possible"? (If the soonest possible is a few days, or weeks... and access to more than a few replacement filters is limited, what then?)


                                Can you recommend any kind of tester that I could include in my disaster kit? Or one that would give me some indication of when my Berky filter needs replacing?

                                (Note: I sent another email to add this bit):

                                In the event of a nuclear disaster, how advantageous would pre-filtering through a tight weave fabric such as silk along with about 8 inches of clayey soil (collected from a depth of about 5 inches below the surface) be as a pre-treatment to help extend the life of the Berkey filter?


                                Worst case scenario (depleted stored water, etc.):

                                If no other water could be had other than a heavily contaminated pond of water, how soon could I expect to have to replace the Black Berkey filter if the water was pretreated as outlined above?

                                --------------------------------


                                Here is the quoted material that I referenced to in the letter:

                                https://www.berkeywater.com/news/a-l...-contaminants/


                                In a crisis scenario, such as an accidental or weaponized nuclear incident, it is important to have a survival water filter truly capable of removing or greatly reducing radiological contaminants at the ready...

                                ...For those who are unfortunate enough to be caught in a radiological contamination zone, it is recommended that the Black Berkey ® Purification Elements be replaced as soon as is feasible post-evacuation. This is because the more radiological contaminants the elements remove, the more radioactive the elements themselves become. Consider having backup sets of Black Berkey® Purification Elements in your emergency kits or bags at all times to make the switch quickly.
                                Last edited by GrizzlyetteAdams; 11-12-2018, 03:42 PM.
                                Genius is making a way out of no way.

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