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  • Hummer
    replied
    Thanks. When I went to the Army Small Cal Lab I found out right quick that I did not know what I thought I did and what I did was not correct haha.

    Thus I have been trying to give folks the straight info on several different forums under the same name.

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  • lalakai
    replied
    Hummer, definitely glad you decided to join the forum. some very good info. thanks

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  • RICHFL
    replied
    Try Carbelas.com, they carry both reloading, and black powder supplies.

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  • Hummer
    replied
    Primers are not like light bulbs. It is not a all go or no go. In other words just because one hundred fire doesn't mean 101 won't. As a rough estimate if I remember the statistical boys at Aberdeen PG they said if you fire 500 rounds without incident you have a 95% reliability predictability. Personally if I am going into a TEOTWAWKI I am wanting 115% reliability and a back up plan.

    Assuming ammo is stored correctly it will last longer than you will live. For instance the projected storage life of US military(MILSPEC) ammo in cans THAT HAVE NEVER BEEN OPENED is a minimum of 125 years if stored in cool dry place.

    STORING AMMO IN CAR TRUNKS IN THE SUMMER IS INVITING PROBLEMS. Rule of thumb if the heat level is uncomfortable to you the ammo doesn't like it any better. Cold weather is not nearly so bad but wide temp changes will not be good in the long run.

    Thus if you buy the MILSPEC ammo in the 420 rounds cans loaded at Lake City that is being sold now DO NOT OPEN IT but keep it stored until it is needed. Warning the surplus ammo stored in plastic bags will be suspect because the bags are PVC. PVC gives off a gas which in the presence of moisture will attack the ammo and corrode it severely. Store in no ammo in PVC bag.

    PP or PE won't do this. Food cannot be packaged in PVC bags nor are any of the Tupperware type containers PVC, they are all PP or PE.

    The projected storage life of the MILSPEC ammo that has been opened and exposed to the air is reduced to 75 years (MAYBE). For instance I once bought a 1500 round case of German Army 8MM Mauser ammo (loaded in 34) in 1971 and started to shoot it and I had about five failures to fire in about 700 rounds and some click bangs.

    MILSPEC ammo has been specially treated to RESIST moisture (humidity) degradation and this is done three ways. The primers have sealant applied around the edge, the case mouth is coated with lacquer internally and the ammo is packed in cans in a cold room, placed in wire bound crates and a seal attached. (the best)

    Because it is known ammo will deteriorate when you go into a military ammo bunker you normally should not see over one or two cans marked LITE or LITEBOX which means that can has been opened for inspection by ammo surveilance specialists or was returned unfired. On the next ammo issue that ammo should be issued first as the seal has been broken and the life clock is in fast mode.

    I was in a bunker once and a lite box was opened and it was bad. It had started to rain on the range and the unfired ammo and bandoleers were dumped in this can and returned internally wet and sealed and had not been opened in six months. The corrosion was so bad the 5.56 stripper clips were worthless. They were going to send it for destruction and I told them I wanted to test it.

    I think it was 360 rounds?????? but I took it to range, broke the ammo out out of the stripper clips and loaded it in mags and EVERY LAST ONE FIRED which really surprised me. I know handload ammo won't take that. There was corrosion on cases which required a wire wheel to remove in order for it to chamber.

    I was conducting a 10,000 round test on 357 Mag revolvers once and a very light sprinkle came up and we had ammo out on table removed from cartons. We had already fired about 1500 rounds (all same lot number was ordered so whole test (30,000 rds) would be fired with same lot number) without incident.

    I just turned my clip board over and walked to a cover and within ten minutes it stopped and we resumed testing. In the first box there was five misfires. Second box more and third box more. I removed all that ammo and replaced it with new dry ammo and went back to 100% ignition.

    Next morning I called the manufacturer and told them what happened and was told they had made the decision to stop the primer sealant and I told them immediatley I was going to advise my procurement contracting officer to remove them from the QPL. Two days later I got a call from them and they had decided to resume the sealant and I called the PCO and told him to disregard previous.

    If primers have not been mistreated in any way and they come from a sealed can you should not experience a misfire rate of more than one in a million assuming there is nothing wrong with the weapon you are firing them in.

    Primers have to be hit hard and with speed. Remove either speed or energy and it will misfire worst case, hang fire which is you get a click-bang or erratic ignition that will take a chronograph to detect or you will see vertical stringing at long range.

    Vertical stringing is also caused by varying propellant charge, air space in the top of the cartridge between the propellant and the bullet, varying neck tension which results in bullet pull variances and the use of post front sights.

    Bullet pull is the amount of force required to get the bullet moving. This can range from a few pounds to over 300 pounds and still be IN SPEC ! ! ! ! ! Long range ammo is extremely dependent on uniformity of bullet release. With one round releasing at 25 lbs, the next at 75, the next at 150 etc the variance in velocity is going to kill you at long range with vertical stringing.

    Match ammo should have a standard deviation of no more than 10 for 600 yards and closer. Ideally you want a SD of perhaps 7 or lower for ranges over 600 yards.

    Lets say you have a chronograph and you have your 308 ammo loaded up and you test it for SD and extreme spread. OK lets say the chronograph reports you have a extreme spread in velocity of 100 feet per second. Even fired from a machine rest in ideal conditions with perfect barrel your group is going to be 40" high at 1000 yards. A 50 foot spread will give you 20" of elevation. The 10 ring on a 1000 yard target is 20" in diameter and the X ring is 10".

    On F class targets I think the 10 ring is 7" and the X ring is 3". This game is fast catching on and I understand will be fired the first time this year at Camp Perry. You can bet those guys have ammo with an extreme spread of ten fps. F class is ultimate precision.

    But back to the good news. If you get a misfire with perfect ammo 99.99% of the time it is traceable to the weapon as being the cause from several things:

    Retarded striker velocity (debris in striker(firing pin) channel)

    Striker spring has taken a set and energy is not to specified level.

    I have seen new rifles out of the box deliver insufficient energy.

    Off center striker hits. If your primer indent is offset more than .020" you are getting into marginal ignition territory. The industry recommendation is for no more than .030". Yes the industry recommends no more than .030" offset when Frankford arsenal testing of millions of primers showed .020" as the max without detriment. Welcome to the wonderful world of business where there is no real QA to insure relibility.

    Excessive headspace of rifle or excessive sizing of case shoulder giving same conditiion by making the case shorter.

    Lubricant thickening in cold weather will definitely cause misfires and erratic ignition. Most oil that comes from the ground will thicken in cold weather.

    On bolt guns the bolts need to be disassembled and degreased and relubed with a synthetic lube known to operate in cold weather.

    NOTE: just because a lube says on container it is good to minus this or that don't believe it unless you know for sure. For instance at Aberdeen we were using CLP at -60 in cold room. Not one weapon fired with it. We warmed the room up and it gave satisfactory performance starting about -15.

    LAW Lubricant Arctic Weapon is the only think I positively know will work at -65F.

    Bottom line if you are going to reload for SHTF use seal your primers with clear nail polish wiping off excess and leaving it in crevice around primer. (wipe wet case head by dragging it across newspaper which will take off polish on case head and leave it around primer).

    Make sure your primers are seated below case head. If primer pockets start to feel loose seating primers use those first. Commercial cases for the most part have soft case heads and primer pockets get loose quickly.

    MILSPEC 7.62 from Lake City, FA etc have hard case heads for MG use. If you have a tight chamber you should be able to reload them 100 times in a bolt gun. You are lucky to get 20 reloads with tight chamber on commercial cases. For that matter any 7.62 with NATO headstamp is required to have hard case heads. NATO head stamp is the round circle with + inside it. Match ammo(MILSPEC) has hard case heads but does not have NATO headstamp. It says LC MATCH or FA MATCH and year of manufacture.

    Immediately pack in ammo can or other air tight container. Do not remove ammo until ready to use it.

    Now I gotta go take my walk and I know this has just given you guys lots of warm fuzzy feelings about having a click when you are expecting a bang. There are ways to determine striker energy I will cover later and some telltale signs you are cruising for problems.

    Have a nice day ! ! !! !
    Last edited by Hummer; 03-26-2012, 10:37 AM.

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  • lalakai
    replied
    good to know...i didn't think primers were affected much by "shelf life". Dang, now I have to check some brass that i've kept primed but not loaded, to make sure the primers are still viable before i finish reloading 'em. Thanks Hummer.

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  • Hummer
    replied
    If you are going to buy a large stock of primers they need to be stored in 20MM ammo cans and 30 cal ammo cans. Humidity is a killer of primers. The master cases have 5M per sleeve. Remove one 1M sleeve and place it in 30 cal can. When you open can remove what you need and close it quickly.
    I am friends of several primer engineers and they do not like humidity. Also if you are going to lay in buy new production and not stuff that has been on shelf for ten years.

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  • jmk
    replied
    place near me has tons of them, im kinda considering buying up their entire stock, far as I know they don't go bad.

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  • Awesome
    replied
    I'm in NY (long island / NYC area) so local shops prices are out of control.... I have to look online... I guess if anyone see's primers in stock please let me know (anything but magnums).

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  • avking
    replied
    All of the local shops around here and in Vegas had primers. All styles. Prices are still about 20% higher than they should be, but they have plenty in stock. I stopped looking online, now that the locals have them.

    Seems to me that the rifle ammunition shortage is all but over at this point. Every store I go into and all the online retailers have lots of stock. Same with rimfire. Prices are still higher than they should be, but I don't expect to see them drop for a long time, if ever.

    Handgun ammunition, particularly .45 is still an issue. 9mm & .40 seem to be easily available, but .45 is still tough.

    The AR15 market is also clearing up a LOT. All sorts of uppers, lowers, furniture and accessories are to be had, and the prices are getting better. But, AR10 stuff is still in really short supply.

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  • Awesome
    started a topic primers

    primers

    Anyone know a place that still has primers in stock??

    large/small pistol
    large/small rifle




    All I can seem to find is darn magnums
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