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  • #31
    since you won't get shot placement, when you are being shot-at, why bother to discuss it? The fact is that most of your shots will completely miss the man at a mere 7 yds, and most of your hits will be poor hits. So yes, we should try to maximize the shock and destruction caused by the bullet. The heart is the same size as the brain. If you can hit the one, why not aim for the other, hmm? The fact is that you recogonize you can't hit the brain reliably, so you HOPE that your shots to the body will have an effect. Well, the facts are that nothing you do to the body, not even the heart, cause physical incapacitation in less than 4 seconds. A man can shoot you 20 times in 4 seconds. When we see the desired "instant" effects (from a torso hit that misses the spine), what we are seeing is a psychological quitting, not incapacitation. The more shock and destruction you can cause, it's more likely that the guy will at least notice that he's been shot, and quit his attack.

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    • #32
      I can prove the above pretty easily, too. Just do your shooting without ear protection (like when it's for real, in bad light, on moving targets, with me shooting past your head, with about 10 year's pay bet on the outcome. :-) You'll find out what a little bit of (non-lethal) pressure does to all the "accuracy" that you "think" you can display (while someone's trying to kill you).

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      • #33
        Over the years I investigated like 24 shootings involving 12 gauge shotguns. Out of all those shootings, mostly suicides, only 2 people survived being shot with 12 gauge shotguns. One was a guy who accidentally shot himself in the foot after a hunting trip. He went to unload the shotgun and it went off as it crossed over his left foot. He ended up losing that foot. The other was a girl who got wounded with "lead dust" fired at close range into her buttock. The other 22 people all died at the scene. Once you touch off the trigger of a 12 gauge there is no appeal.

        Because of the amount of damage and the way all the deceased people in the first few cases I investigated IMMEDIATELY STOPPED, I always carried a 12 gauge shotgun in my patrol car. More than once that shotgun came in handy even though I never did have to use its lethal force.

        The worst case I had involved a young man of about 25 years of age. He shot himself in his bedroom in such a way that he splattered himself on all 4 walls, the ceiling and the floor. I couldn't believe it. The saddest case involved an older gentleman who got confused about a letter from a government agency that he thought was going to put his business out of action. That was NOT what the letter said. The older man misread the letter and killed himself with a shotgun in a hallway to limit damage.

        The strangest one I had was right after I got hired. A woman called to request an officer because of a problem with her husband. Rookie me gets there to find hubby dead and laying on plastic sheeting. I'm looking this scene all over and I discover that all around the area where the body lies has been cleaned up and washed down. Turns out that the lady of the house was immaculately clean. She was almost to the point of being OCD when it comes to clean. Our lab officer had seen this before so he knew all about this kind of situation. We did confirm that hubby had killed himself with the shotgun because of residue powder and the blast direction, etc.

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        • #34
          When it comes to stopping power with a handgun most of what your have seen is nonsense. It take bullets the size of a baseball to knock someone down. If you support a cadaver and shoot into it you well see that bullets won't just knock it down. They will either pass through or stay in the body but won't knock it down. Remember that the bullet cannot hit any harder than the recoil it produces in the firearm. It takes hydraulic shock, rapid internal bleeding, and massive tissue damage to stop an enraged person. Bullet placement, velocity (hydraulic shock) and massive internal damage to promote rapid internal bleeding (caliber/bullet diameter) are the keys to stopping power.

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          • #35
            Here is a little history for you: Do you know why the military bought the .45 ACP and the 1911 Auto?

            Because they found that the .38 cartridge was not doing the job, on the Guerrillas in the Philippines. This happened from 1899-1903.

            The Army and Marine Corps both looked at other rounds including the colt .45 long, the 44-40, and both were found wanting. So along comes a new round called the .45 ACP which with one to two round hits puts down the target. The Army liked the 1911, and purchased it starting in 1905, but made changes starting in 1907. That is why we now have the famous 1911A1 Auto.

            The first one I used on the range was originally built in 1942. I used it in 1973. Still did the work we needed.

            Does any one wonder why the SEALS and Force RECON went back to the .45 ACP????

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            • #36
              Originally posted by smelt
              placement is bs. Everyone who's been in actual gunfights misses the entire man with half of their shots, unless it's an ambush, as was done on about 40 armed robbers by the NYC stakeout unit, during 270+ stopping of armed robberies. All in liquor stores in Harlem, all black thugs, all black owners of and workers in the stores. The program was working FAR too well, so the NAACP made them stop it. Most hits are poor hits, too. That's the fact of the matter. Hitting one lung means nothing, he's got a spare. Blood loss is ALWAYS too slow, it takes at least 4 seconds. The only way that body hits get instant stops is psychological. it hurts, a LOT, so most people almost instantly quit doing what they were doing that got them shot. This stopping power bs just skips over the fact that people MOVE, use cover, the light is often very bad, your ears are blown out, your night-adapted vision is ruined with your first muzzle flash (and maybe by his, too.if he's close enough and using a .357! :-) The facts are that just showing your gun normally suffices. Most attacks are not made with guns. MISSES have changed a lot of minds, as have warning shots, poor hits, and feeble loads. The odds of your having to brain anyone, or shoot them into the ground with multiple swift hits to the chest, with a powerful load, are vanishingly small unless you're a cop in a very rough area, and are near-zero as a civilan. I've pointed guns at men 8x in my life, fired a warning shot once (it was dark and the 4 men did not believe I had a .45! :-) They got back into their car a LOT faster than they had charged out of it at me. :-) INSTANT decisions to go elsewhere, at top speed, is by far the usual response, and many just drop to their knees and beg not to be shot.
              Smelt, I am a combat veteran. I've been shot, stabbed and a number of other injuries I'd like to forget. I try to never talk down to or criticize new members until I have reason to. Your opinion is yours and I don't know you or your life's experiences but if you think shot placement is BS you might want to reconsider until you have survived your first dozen firefights. I've watched my friends die as well as my countries enemies and can tell you shot placement decides who lives and who dies when professionals are involved. Accuracy is a combination of professional training and practice and both are available to civilians as well as the military. You might want to check in to that. Just sayin.

              Dale

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              • #37
                Originally posted by smelt
                no it doesn't, not with pistols. With pistols, all you have time for is 3-4 shots as fast as possible, with 1-2 good hits (with luck) unless all he has is a knife or club, and you've got your gun on him from 10 ft away. People make lots of lying claims, including Jeff Cooper, Chuck Taylor and almost everyone else. I knew Jim Cirillo a bit, and he never claimed (on his own, as jeff claimed FOR him) that he brained the three men that he shot on his first stakeout, or that he aimed at the head for other than the first guy. He shot one in the side as he turned to flee and shot the other one in the back. They both made it to the hospital under their own power. That would have been much less likely to have been the result had he been using 110 gr .357 jhps, at 1500 fps, as vs .38 lrn.

                Jim once centered a guy with all 9 00 buck pellets, from a 14" Ithaca, at 10 ft, and the guy turned and ran. Jim tried to shoot him in the back, without first pumping the action, then he got it done and centered the guy again, this time at about 20 ft. the guy keep on running! then Jim's partner fired alongside of Jim, and hit the guy in the hip with a .39 lrn and down he went, pure accident. :-)
                So,...everyone lies but Jim Cirillo and you. ROFLOL!

                Dale

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                • #38
                  10' - 12ga, full load of 00 buck, center mass and person isn't taken off their feet or they're not looking at a new window where their heart was? Instead they are able to run away?
                  I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you!

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by RICHFL View Post
                    Here is a little history for you: Do you know why the military bought the .45 ACP and the 1911 Auto?

                    Because they found that the .38 cartridge was not doing the job, on the Guerrillas in the Philippines. This happened from 1899-1903.

                    The Army and Marine Corps both looked at other rounds including the colt .45 long, the 44-40, and both were found wanting. So along comes a new round called the .45 ACP which with one to two round hits puts down the target. The Army liked the 1911, and purchased it starting in 1905, but made changes starting in 1907. That is why we now have the famous 1911A1 Auto.

                    The first one I used on the range was originally built in 1942. I used it in 1973. Still did the work we needed.

                    Does any one wonder why the SEALS and Force RECON went back to the .45 ACP????
                    the 45 LC had more energy than the ACP......45 LC would not work in a semiauto, it was never a choice for a new handgun, bullet energy was not a factor....Browning designed the 1911 as a all new pistol, the rimmed ACP round was designed to work in a semiauto...

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                    • #40
                      Jimmy Cirillo was a riot to be around. We used to ride to matches together when he worked at FLETC. Management at FLETC didn't like Jimmy because he told it like it was and had the experience to back it up. They finally forced him into disability retirement because while giving a lecture on the outdoor range he backed up and stepped into a small depression in the ground and lost his balance and went down messing his back up. He went to Docs and was put on light duty and told not to lift over 10 lbs. A case of ammo weighed more so management declared him unfit and forced him out on Workman's Comp.

                      In one lecture one day a student made a comment and Jimmy came back with, "I am an Italian Greek married to a Puerto Rican and you think you have problems!" I was at his space one morning and his phone rang so I answered it. It was Jimmy, he told me to tell supervisor he was taking a sick day. I asked him what his problem was and he said, " I got eye trouble, can't see coming to work today." Jimmy was a ball of fun to be around.

                      Col Fackler of the Army Wound Ballistics Lab told cops at a lecture he gave that the only way you can put someone down whether they want to or not is to "crush or sever the spinal cord or evacuate the cranial vault". Other than that there was no assurance of putting them down.

                      I saw a interview with a former Governor of I think it was S. Dakota about 40 years ago. He said he was a gunner on a M2 BMG during the War and the Japs put a Banzai on them and his Sgt told him to "get the guy with the sword first" and he did. He tagged him in the middle of a creek at a measured 55 yards and guy kept coming and he continued to tag him till he fell which was 17 yards from the muzzle of the M2 and he said he put 37 rounds of ball/tracer through him up until that point. All in upper torso ! ! ! !

                      Which begs the question "and you think something in your pocket is gonna be the last word?"
                      Last edited by Hummer; 07-20-2018, 02:49 AM.
                      Distinguished Rifleman High Power , Distinguished Rifleman Smallbore Prone, Presidents Hundred (Rifle), Palma Teams Member (2), Dewar Teams Member (2), Member 4 Man National Championship Smallbore AnySight Team, Certified Small Arms and Ammunition Test Director Aberdeen Proving Ground , Eagle Scout, AC4HT, NRA Benefactor Member, Firefighter I, Shriner

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                      • #41
                        Well this thread was very written and many outstanding comments and a few duds. I let you all figure out which is which. I will say I am a one shot kill believer. With that being said, I will quantify, I will take the best shot I can to make a one shot kill. Accuracy is king in my book. I cannot take sides on returning fire and accuracy degradation, no experience in those situations. I have not walked the walk, not going to make the talk. My EDC is a 9mm and I plan to stop shooting when the villain stops moving. I do practice a triple shot routine, First 2 center mass and then 1 head. I may change that to first 1, head and then 2 center mass. i will check my shot time and see if there is any real differences. Thanks to almost all that contributed to this thread, outstanding job.
                        It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener in a war!

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                        • #42
                          Just remembered another shooting. When I was in Explorer Scouts the Post Advisor was a former Marine (2nd Wave on Bougainville, DI at PI, 1st Wave on Guam. While on Guam he and a buddy were sitting on a hilltop watching a Marine Rifle Company advance across a open area while they talked. Without any show of excitement/pain his buddy said," Damn I've been hit." There was continuous shooting going on all around them from a distance away so he didn't know the source. He looked at his buddy and he fell over dead.

                          Later they were taking their first shower in weeks and one of his guys pulls a wooden bullet out of his hip. He said they found a number of Jap rounds loaded with wood bullets and I have seen pics of Jap ammo with wood bullets.

                          We were down at his property building a obstacle course (our Post was like no other. Both Advisors were Sgts in WW2. and we did things no other post did) we were standing there and one was explaining how we were going to build it and a round came in at about a 30 degree down angle, passed right between the five of us and I instinctively followed the sound and saw it hit the ground about 10 feet away. I tried to dig it up but never could find it. The crazy part was we listened for the shot and never heard it so shooter must have been a mile or more away.

                          The interesting part was not one of us went ape.
                          Distinguished Rifleman High Power , Distinguished Rifleman Smallbore Prone, Presidents Hundred (Rifle), Palma Teams Member (2), Dewar Teams Member (2), Member 4 Man National Championship Smallbore AnySight Team, Certified Small Arms and Ammunition Test Director Aberdeen Proving Ground , Eagle Scout, AC4HT, NRA Benefactor Member, Firefighter I, Shriner

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                          • #43
                            Most people here are talking about shooting someone at 7 meters. Yes the police academy weapons courses have you shoot at 7 and 3 meters. Why???

                            Because how much time does it take for you to cover 7 meters? 2-5 seconds. Now if you are the shooter you have to make the decision to shoot, bring the weapon up aim it, and pull the trigger. Before you get the first round off that individual will be on you. If he has a weapon you are D E A D. Not only is aim point important but your body placement; what stands between you and the individual is just as important.

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                            • #44
                              It is my understanding there is a 21 foot guideline for shooting. If the perpetrator is within 21 feet and armed, it is a shooting situation. Outside of h 21 feet, you have a small window to consider if it is a shoot or no shoot situation. A person armed with a knife, can close the distance very quickly. Now if this is a home invasion situation, any where in my home, is a shoot situation. The second an invader crossed my doorstep, they are within the shoot boundary. My home, my rules.
                              It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener in a war!

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