Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

A Beginner's Guide to Stopping Power

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    My last words about firearms at least for this week.

    It is a well know fact that in the USMC a pistol is used for only on purpose: To give you cover to get to your rifle. No more and no less. Give me a 870 or 500 shotgun any day over a pistol for close in work. At one time the Marines were issued the MP-5 for crew members of armor vehicles. That lasted 3 years... They now use the M-4!!!

    Comment


    • #17
      Fackler said many times the only way to put someone down immediately was crush/sever the spinal cord or evacuate the cranial vault. He went to two autopies where hearts were removed with 12 gage guns at close range and both of them made it over 50 yards before they went down so the 5 second rule doesn't hold.

      Fackler said some people will go full bore upwards of three minutes especially if they are charged up on dope, taken a deep breath right before getting shot or are extremely mad.

      He told the police we lectured to that after a shooting remain behind cover, call for backup and don't approach shootee until the world arrives and use extreme caution when doing so.
      Distinguished Rifleman High Power , Distinguished Rifleman Smallbore Prone, Presidents Hundred (Rifle), Palma Teams Member (2), Dewar Teams Member (2), Member 4 Man National Championship Smallbore AnySight Team, Certified Small Arms and Ammunition Test Director Aberdeen Proving Ground , Eagle Scout, AC4HT, NRA Benefactor Member, Firefighter I, Shriner

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Comment


      • #18
        Hummer,

        Just read your original post. Lot's of good info, Thanks. I guess I fall back to my training on human targets (2 to the chest, 1 to the head) with whatever weapon is in my hand, be it a sidearm, SMG, shotgun or rifle. For hunting meat or fur I strictly go for head or neck shots. Can't run away if it's dead.

        What's that old military saying, (Never shoot a large caliber man with a small caliber round)

        Dale

        Comment


        • #19
          (Never shoot a large caliber man with a small caliber round) 2 center and go high was standard training at FLETC

          I just to tell my students: IF IT DOESN'T KICK ON THE BACK END CHANCES ARE IT WON'T BE EFFECTIVE WHEN IT GETS THERE

          I also called the MOTHER IN LAW GUNS as they were only good for keeping your mother in law off you ! ! ! !

          Distinguished Rifleman High Power , Distinguished Rifleman Smallbore Prone, Presidents Hundred (Rifle), Palma Teams Member (2), Dewar Teams Member (2), Member 4 Man National Championship Smallbore AnySight Team, Certified Small Arms and Ammunition Test Director Aberdeen Proving Ground , Eagle Scout, AC4HT, NRA Benefactor Member, Firefighter I, Shriner

          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          Comment


          • #20
            After the famous Miami shooting in Mid 80s the FBI held a Wound Ballistics Workshop at Quantico, VA facility. I forgot I had them but Fackler sent me the minutes of the workshop.

            Here is the summary section:

            SUMMARY


            I. WOUNDING – Except for hits to the central nervous s stem (CNS), reliable and reproducible instant incapacitation is not possible with any handgun bullet. Whether incapacitation occurs, depends entirely upon the physical, emotional, psychological, and mental state of the individual, including the presence or absence of narcotics, alcohol, or adrenalin. Even if the heart is destroyed, the individual still has enough oxygen in the brain for full and complete voluntary action for 10 to l5 seconds.

            Temporary cavitation caused by a handgun round has no wounding effect. Kinetic energy deposit has no wounding effect. Organs will only be damaged by handgun bullets if they are hit by that bullet. Therefore, bullets must be capable of penetrating deeply enough to pass through the organs to be effective. The experts condemned the use of the well-known Relative Incapacitation Index (RII) as a viable method for the comparison of bullets inasmuch as the RII measurements are based on temporary cavitation and do not reflect actual wound results.

            Given equal penetration, a bigger bullet will disrupt more tissue and hopefully cause greater bleeding. Barring a CNS hit, incapacitation can only be forced by blood loss and that takes time as well as sufficient penetration to hit major blood vessels through intervening musculature, fat, clothing, arms, etc. Any bullet that will not reliably penetrate a minimum of 10 to 12 inches of soft tissue is inadequate. Penetration is a function of bullet mass and design, not velocity. The feared hazards of over penetration are greatly exaggerated except in the case of full-metal-jacket (FMJ) ammunition.


            II. 9mm vs. .45 – The single most important factor in assessing the effectiveness of any caliber is penetration. If the bullet will not penetrate at least 10 to 12 inches of soft tissue, it is dangerously inadequate. Given equal penetration, a larger bullet will disrupt more tissue and could hasten blood loss; however, the experts could not say that the damage caused by the larger .45 caliber was significantly more than that of the 9mm. Barring the FMJ ammunition in both calibers, there are no currently available 9mm hollowpoints that are adequate. If they expend, they do not penetrate enough. If they do not expand, they perform like FMJ ammunition. A new 9mm round, the 147-grain, subsonic ammunition developed for the Department of Defense, may be the answer for 9mm pistols. Preliminary testing of this round reflects excellent penetration, expansion, and accuracy. In .45 caliber, the hollowpoint ammunition tested ranged in penetration from marginally adequate to acceptable. Three of the eight experts recommend the .45 over the current 9mm rounds with the exception of the 147-grain, subsonic round, which they recommend for further testing and evaluation. Four of the eight advised that there was no difference in the wounding effects of either caliber given adequate penetration. One of the eight recommended the 9mm based upon future military research and development that will occur in the years to come and which will improve the caliber in terms of ballistic efficiency. Such improvements are conservatively ten or more years away.

            Because incapacitation cannot be predicted, the Agent should keep on shooting as long as the individual poses a threat. The shooter should not assume that one or two hits will incapacitate or stop the threat. For this reason, several of the experts opted for increased magazine capacity.

            While expansion is desirable, no bullet should be selected if it must expand in order to perform properly. The perception of the Agents using the weapons can be an overwhelming factor. If the Agent believes in the reliability and effectiveness of the weapon and ammunition, then he/she tends to shoot better with that weapon.


            For those that want to read all the minutes you can download it from my cloud below.

            https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...Ta?usp=sharing
            Last edited by Hummer; 05-01-2019, 07:45 PM.
            Distinguished Rifleman High Power , Distinguished Rifleman Smallbore Prone, Presidents Hundred (Rifle), Palma Teams Member (2), Dewar Teams Member (2), Member 4 Man National Championship Smallbore AnySight Team, Certified Small Arms and Ammunition Test Director Aberdeen Proving Ground , Eagle Scout, AC4HT, NRA Benefactor Member, Firefighter I, Shriner

            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            Comment


            • #21
              Fackler's personal carry gun was a 45 ACP with 230 gr and I was told by shooters who used them on the following accounts.

              I worked with a guy that shot a guy 7 times with a 45 that was running towards him with a rifle w/ bayonet on it and he put the 8th round in forehead and that dropped him. The group in his chest was about 3" diameter dead center. Shooter was on the Marine Corps pistol team.

              Got another buddy who shot a guy from 7 feet with 230 gr. fmj and he turned and ran off. Nobody reported to a hospital and no body was ever found.

              Got another friend (beat cop) who saw a guy shot from about 15 feet with a 45 in the mouth, he got knocked back to a bar and spat out three teeth and the bullet, still on his feet.

              I had a pit bull attack me on a mountain bike two years ago. I shot him from a range of about 18", got him from the top 2 inches left of spine, he cut a backwards flip and did not lose his footing. He started yelping and I could hear him wheezing every time he yelped. I estimate dog only weighed about 55 lbs, bullet DID NOT EXIT BODY! ! ! ! Dog walked back up to property and was never seen again. I called a vet buddy who told me he would likely die without intervention. I could clearly see hole in him and NO BLOOD.

              Got a game warden buddy who has been shot on two separate occasions, once with 9MM and once with 45. He said 45 hurt a whole lot more.

              I have read two places in last several months that only 7% of handgun wounds prove fatal.

              I have never talked to anyone that took a solid thoracic cavity hit from a 6.5MM or larger rifle that survived. Talk to vets and ask them. Had a buddy here who had two purples, 5 Bronze Vs, operated on 47 times to remove shrapnel (Battle of Bulge where he was a sniper) and I asked him how many he shot or saw shot with a 8MM or 30.06 and survived and he said quickly, "None".



              Distinguished Rifleman High Power , Distinguished Rifleman Smallbore Prone, Presidents Hundred (Rifle), Palma Teams Member (2), Dewar Teams Member (2), Member 4 Man National Championship Smallbore AnySight Team, Certified Small Arms and Ammunition Test Director Aberdeen Proving Ground , Eagle Scout, AC4HT, NRA Benefactor Member, Firefighter I, Shriner

              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

              Comment

              Working...
              X