if 308's are so great, WHY do 223' AR's OWN the 600 yd line at the matches?

[Tugaloo]

I learned how to use the mildot reticle.
It helps make long distance shooting somewhat easier. Most standing groundhogs are about so high standing or on 4 legs; using the dots to measure either gives a closer estimate of range. If one can't see them in the alfalfa, most fence post are roughly so wide, same as power line poles etc.. Our world is filled with known dimensional references.

AFA wind, I watch the weather station's anemometer readings and watch the tree, brush or tall weed movements. When I used to shoot long distance, I watched the range flags and knew the exact distance to the targets. However, there isn't any flags or known distances in a pasture.

Yup, with this stuff, my gear is in my head attached to my neck; so I won't lose it.. LOL I'm old school and enjoy DIY; if that makes sense.

[Dorobuta]

just an FYI, I use an Alaska Guide Creations Bino harness - there are others , but this one has been bullet proof for me. I use it on all my hunts, including archery. My range finder is attached to it with a coiled elastic dummy cord.

(any gear that isn't attached to you, you will lose - don't argue, just accept this as a fact. )

[Dorobuta]

To add to RICHFL's post.

600 yards is 548 meters; if one can see that far.

In combat, targets are not at known distances, there aren't any range flags to dope the wind and targets are not always stationary.

if you know how to use your scope, you can range accurately enough to score hits. Depending on the reticle type, most have built in methods for estimating the distance to an 18" wide target. Chevron and horseshoe reticles are good for this. Some scopes have stadia lines to the side of the main crosshair for this purpose.

You're not going to be making competition accurate shots, but you will be making COMBAT EFFECTIVE shots.

There are scopes, like the Shepard line, that have circles. put the circle that fits the inside of the target on the target and you're good to go. It's very fast and accurate.

Some scopes have a thick portion of the cross hair. you can use this for range estimation, providing you practice for it. You can use the height of the thick portion, or the height from the thick portion to the cross hair to judge distance.

There's all kinds of range estimation tricks available, if you take the time to learn your gear.

Plus, if you're like me, you probably have a range finder attached to your bino harness. (I won't be in the field without wearing it)

[Tugaloo]

But it is not the same as putting your backside on the line with what you know.


No....shooting paper at the range, ideal laboratory conditions... is not the same as survival.

My non Ishmaelite .02,
Orangetom

Life is about making choices and good ones. As we aren't heading out to the boonies, we'll have more choices for what we eat and what we will need for defense against those who wish to share.
Considering surviving long term alone in the boonies to surviving long term in the cities, suburbs, or rural; points out all scenarios are different.

Wikipedia's definition of "seeing the elephant" is "an Americanism which refers to gaining experience of the world at a significant cost" states it quite well.. Another phrase is climbed the mountain to meet the elephant..

Combat in any form is quite different than practicing. Even trained soldiers are considered "cherries" by their experienced or hardened peers.

Remember the old saying: "best-laid plans of mice and men oft go astray"
The reason old sayings last so long is they apply so often to everyone.

[orangetom1999]

Hmmmmm........ .223...5.56mm???? Bear...wild pig???

Moro Tribesmen...drug filled???? No....no..no…....I meant Seattle Two legged drug filled wildlife???

I like my .308 Winchester....or my M1 Garand. Other than that.....12 gauge 00 or slug......once in a while 000.

Don't get me wrong here..I like punching paper....

But punching paper is not survival.


You can read a lot of stuff..in books ...useful stuff.....and I like to read.

But it is not the same as putting your backside on the line with what you know.



Taught myself to pick locks...even make my own lockpicks and lock shims.

You can read about it....and or watch it on U tube...but it is not the same as hands on experience.

Want to know if you are better than average....pick a lock on a recessed Jo Box....rather than out in the wide open. They don't teach you that one on U Tube or in books per se.

No....shooting paper at the range, ideal laboratory conditions... is not the same as survival.



My non Ishmaelite .02,
Orangetom

[Tugaloo]

Which renders the 20"HBAR type AR a single shot straight pull rifle at that stage.

Please explain how a single stage of a rifle competition using ammunition specificlly designed and taylored to it has anything to do with the general performance of the two rifle cartridges you mention.

Both are fine for survival use.
If you keep your expectations of them to their practical limits.
And make choices if either one in addition to what they will be fired from based on individual health/physical fitness, skill with them. Wildlife, possible & realistic threats from other humans and your area to include climate and tertian.

As usual, registror will avoid answering.

If he does; then, ask registror what about a 10 MPH or more crosswind and how much does he compensate?

[Garand]

World War 2 & Korea were truly the last long range battles for combat arms soldiers, what did they use

[Tugaloo]

To add to RICHFL's post.

600 yards is 548 meters; if one can see that far.

In combat, targets are not at known distances, there aren't any range flags to dope the wind and targets are not always stationary.

[RICHFL]

The .308 like the 30-06 are rounds that kill from 1' to over 1000 meters away. When the Marines went to France during WW-1 ( the only division ready in 1917) they took their long range experience with them. That is were one shot one kill became a Marine story.

No matter the arguments stated the truth is turnarounds have greater range, greater mass, and greater energy to put the target down.

[Dorobuta]

They have done so ever since Berger brought out the 80 gr VLD match bullets, over 20 years ago.

The answer is simple:

rifle competition is won by fractions of inches.

battles are won with lethal hits.

punching paper is not combat

this is not to say the 5.56 is not a good choice - my carrier is loaded with mags of 5.56
you need to understand the envelopes of the weapons being considered.

I am considering swapping out my magazines for .300 blackout, and maybe setting up another rig for .308.

you need to consider your skills, your environment, what your plans are, etc. Try to keep your gear flexible and not dependent on a single scenario, like being able to be hidden in daylight hours, etc.

you’ll have to decide what’s best for you. Free advice from random people on the internet is generally worth about what you’d expect. But, it should give you things to consider for yourself.

my AR-10:

[BigEd63]

Which renders the 20"HBAR type AR a single shot straight pull rifle at that stage.

Please explain how a single stage of a rifle competition using ammunition specificlly designed and taylored to it has anything to do with the general performance of the two rifle cartridges you mention.

Both are fine for survival use.
If you keep your expectations of them to their practical limits.
And make choices if either one in addition to what they will be fired from based on individual health/physical fitness, skill with them. Wildlife, possible & realistic threats from other humans and your area to include climate and tertian.

[registror]

They have done so ever since Berger brought out the 80 gr VLD match bullets, over 20 years ago.