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  • RebRev
    replied
    Man what a wealth of information! Well I was issued an M-16A1 an early variant but the DI bragged the jamming issues were solved it had a chrome where it counted etc etc. I hated it. I had dreamed of being issued an M-14, but a dream is all it was. Everyone called it a toy, it was super light which didn't make any difference because of the superb physical shape and age I could not imagine how a few ounces more of the M14 would be a problem. Anyway fast forward to two years ago. I was at the local gun show looking for another AK style firearm. Feeling nostalgic, however I purchased a bushmaster dississaptor for its length and in theory the cooling advantages. Around here in the mountains or even the jungle like flat land most shots are not over 75 meters or so. The question I have is the dissipator seems to have a bull or heavy barrel and something makes it a lot heavier than the M-16 colt I was issued (man I loved the full auto, no 3 round bursts for me). The thing is super accurate and with iron sights I can I can hit anything I can see, like a soda can at 100 yards. So am I wrong maybe my strength had tanked so much with age and my disability that the Dissispator just seems about twice as heavy as that colt-16 of years ago? I am more curious than anything since I do not hunt.

    In any-case thanks in advance for this fine forum ~

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  • Oscar Wilde
    replied
    Originally posted by Hummer View Post
    Currently at the NRA Show in Nashville, it is amazing how many new things are out here to examine.
    Looking forward to your report / review.

    O.W.

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  • Hummer
    replied
    Currently at the NRA Show in Nashville, it is amazing how many new things are out here to examine.

    Leave a comment:


  • jezcruzen
    replied
    I recently became the new owner of a mid-length heavy barrel AR as the result of a gun trade. I'll just call it a parts gun and not custom built since I doubt the builder was fussy enough to call it custom. But its a really nice build and I'm satisfied with it. I have the list of parts used and they total $850 worth. I have yet to put it on paper, but test firing showed that it functions as intended. I owned a Colt heavy-barrel AR years ago and was dismayed to find that the "heavy" barrel thinned down beneath the forearm. Not the case with this one. There is a large glut of ARs out there currently and I've seen them selling new locally for $599 out the door. Can't vouch for the quality since there are now so many manufacturers churning them out.

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  • cwi555
    replied
    Originally posted by bambam55 View Post
    a friend of mine works at SIG arms up here in New Hamp. he said he can get me their style ar15 for about $675 his price he says there a pretty good weapon and he knows what's in them and how they're made I'm saving to get one now I'll POST WHEN I GET IT AND GET TO TRY It OUT
    Ummm and you're waiting why???

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  • CountryGuy
    replied
    If you can get a M400 for that price I'd jump all over it. If its a 516 I'd throw your buddy in the truck and drive him there now...

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  • bambam55
    replied
    a friend of mine works at SIG arms up here in New Hamp. he said he can get me their style ar15 for about $675 his price he says there a pretty good weapon and he knows what's in them and how they're made I'm saving to get one now I'll POST WHEN I GET IT AND GET TO TRY It OUT

    Leave a comment:


  • Hummer
    replied
    Glad you mentioned the Black Hills 77 gr. Just the other day someone was asking me about good match ammo for AR and wanted heavy bullets and I told them only place I knew of was BH but did not know if they were still loading them. I assume they are still loading 69MKs as well?

    I have had several conversations with guys that used 77gr in Afghanistan and reported much better results than the M855.

    I just got in a thou 180 gr. FPJ 357 bullets to load in my 35 Whelen and 35 Rem.

    By the way I just went back and added CLARIFICATION to my original which will explain in more detail about SPECS and what they can mean to us
    Last edited by Hummer; 03-16-2015, 07:48 AM.

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  • dalewick
    replied
    Originally posted by Hummer View Post
    thanks,

    I have same set up but black plastic, collapsable butt, no vert grip,same forearm.
    This is my last build and probably the AR I'll keep around for awhile. Got a stainless 18" 1 in 7" barrel, M16 BCG, the Midwest Industries 4 rail fore end all in Magpul Flat Dark Earth. Keeps a 1/2 inch pattern with Blacks Hill 77grain Boat tailed hollow points at 100 yards.

    Dale

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  • Hummer
    replied
    thanks,

    I have same set up but black plastic, collapsable butt, no vert grip,same forearm.

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  • dalewick
    replied
    Click image for larger version

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    Trust your builder, not in a manufacturers name.
    Nice thread and a great post Hummer.

    Dale

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  • Hummer
    replied
    Yes that took him a long time to compose for sure but I would like to clarify the term MILSPEC. Folks say all the time it is MILSPEC but they don't quote the spec or the Rev. For instance it can have a spec referenced for the coating that meets the drawing but that doesn't mean the dimensional tolerances are IN SPEC.

    (Clarification) every part of every weapon system has a drawing and there is a spec for workmanship, a spec for finish, a spec for packaging, a spec for inspection criteria and then there are "callouts". Then there are process drawings which cover the manufacturing process and the big package is the fixture package. Finally there is the revision block. These are added as the result of a ECP (Engineering Change Proposal) based on a need to correct a problem that has surfaced down the road after first article. It can be a function problem or finish change etc. Every time there is a revision to the drawing there is a add on in the revision block. Then you have NOR (Notice of Revision) documents.

    When a contract is let for that part a PRONPAC is initiated and sent to Product Engineering where the engineer in charge of that system reviews the pack, pulls the drawing and compares the drawing to the PRON revision reference and confirms the procurement quoted revision is the latest one. Thusly you can have parts made to revision A, B, C and I have seen revisions up to the end of the alphabet. Thusly just because you have something that says meets MILSPEC doesn't mean you have the latest revision and sometimes the previous parts are dumped on the surplus market that were found to have problems.

    Case in point, there are about a half million 1911A1 Mags floating around with IM291 stamped on bottom. The first 200,000+ were found to have a manufacturing defect which caused the floor plate to be ejected from the mag when it was being loaded/fired.

    They were pulled and sold as excess by the Army and replaced with a later revision, then it was discovered they cracked at the back of the feed lip and they were dumped as well for a total of half a million mags.

    I was on that investigation that found those problems and as soon as the cracking surfaced I knew exactly what caused it and described the guy that did it at the vendor plant as I observed him doing a operation that caused it.

    Have a good friend who was a PCO (Procurement Contract Officer) at Rock Island Arsenal and his specialty was the procurement of M16/M4 parts and he tells me that 95% of the parts on the market won't meet the drawings and thusly are rejected by the Army at first article inspection. Does anyone have any thoughts of what happens to parts rejected by the Army?????


    The term MILSPEC is like saying Politicians Are Honest, Judges are not crooked etc etc.

    Until it has been fully gaged and gone through first article inspection at Rock Island you don't know what you have but we have to work with what we have.

    While at the Army Small Cal Lab I first worked Product Engineering and under that heading we saw examples of MILSPEC items sent it by different activities that were certified as having met spec and accepted.

    For instance we had a 1911A1 slide with a gov't PROOF stamp on it and accepted yet it was never drilled for the striker (civilian term "firing pin") thusly could have never been proof fired. (well they could have heated the barrel to 400°F with a acetylene torch and "cooked" it into firing.)

    We had a 1911A1 barrel certified to meet accuracy standards that had never been rifled.

    And that is just for starters.

    For instance the post states:

    "Chrome lined barrels last longer than almost all other known barrels, typically last twice as long as stainless non-chrome lined barrels. Chrome lined barrels are easier to clean than most other barrels. Chrome lined barrels are much more resistant to corrosion from shooting corrosive ammo and or rusting etc.

    As a whole, quite often a chrome lined barrel is less accurate than a comparable stainless or non-chrome lined chrome moly barrel. Sure some chrome lined barrels are very accurate. I have a friend that has a 20” chrome lined 1x7 twist barrel which shoots 50gr JHP American Eagle factory loads into a ½” at 100yds. It proves that chrome lined barrels can be accurate and that 1x7 twist doesn’t somehow ‘over stabilize’ light weight bullets as many people believe."

    The rest of the story is acceptance dispersion (accuracy) for M16/M4 is 4.5" at 100 yards which is like saying a 200 lb fat girl meets the qualifications for Miss America.

    It is true as a general rule the best way to ruin a barrel is chrome it because the chrome is not evenly applied at the same thicknesses throughout the barrel and the bullet gets squeezed before leaving the muzzle and you are now looking at Patterns and not groups ! ! ! ! But if you get a chrome barrel that really shoots well you have a winner and what you feed it will determine how long it will last.

    The second best way to ruin a barrel is use ball propellant and this can determine barrel life. For instance the propellant LC uses to load 5.56 will take out barrels at about 4800 rounds. The SS109 loaded by FN shot on the same barrels were at rejection at 12,000 rounds.

    Now what determines when a barrel is gone? To a tin can shooter it will never occur, to a match shooter is when his combo prints in excess of a inch. To the SPEC is when it groups in excess of 7.2" at 100 yards.

    The AMU (Army Marksmanship Unit) last I heard replaces barrels every 700 rounds. Most black gun match shooters tell me their tubes are gone at 2000 rounds. Heavy bullets, ball propellant, and rapid fire will do them a number in a hurry. The AMU had barrel changing and QA down to a artform. For instance the guys on the van can remove a barrel and install another and the shooter will more likely be in the TEN RING at 200 the next morning and only need a couple clicks to "center up".

    I am glad he said chrome lined barrels were resistant to corrosive ammo and corrosion. There may be some corrosive 5.56 ammo but I am not aware of any. I have borescoped SKS and while it looked good to the average looksee, a good borescope will tell the tale quickly.

    Another thing that kills accuracy is chrome flaking. A good barrel will go up until the point the right piece of chrome flakes off, is blown out the muzzle and all the follow on bullets have scrapes of bullet jacket shaved off destroying the CG and you have just graduated from groups to patterns.

    In match shooting it is a given that the heavy barrel Match ARs now own the 200/300 yard lines but they won't run with the big dogs at 600 and beyond. Be assured the service rifle records set by Eric England and Michelle Gallagher were done with bolt guns shooting 7.62 and 260 Rem respectively and not done with a gas gun. Michelle's record I think will never be broken as Eric's stood about 40 years.

    In the testing business we found shooting M855 dispersion was not affected much at the 1200 and 2400 round points but at 3600 they had opened significantly and at 4800 they were right on rejection.

    There was also significant accuracy potentials in the M855 and the SS109 loaded by FN. The FN ammo printed about 1/3rd the group sizes of the M855.

    Bottom line guys is don't get hung up on the term MILSPEC unless you read it as DON'TSPEC or NOSPEC.

    There is a big difference in testing for the industry and testing for the gov't because I tend to look at it like, for the industry if you bought it, it passed inspection where with the gov't they have to prove it passes.

    This is not hard to determine when you do walk thru inspections of vendor plants and you see them fire a weapon one round, put it in a box and send to shipping. The alternative term in the South is "knowing where the bodies are buried" but in the weapons business you have to know exactly what a body consists of, what it looks, feels like. What is does and how to make it work.

    Rest assured the folks working in the gun industry at not by any stretch of the imagination gun lovers. For many it is just a job and they don't even know what the part they are making does in the weapon. This is also true for a good many folks in the gov't.

    For instance we had folks in the Army Small Cal Lab that were only there for the check , they were not gun lovers, they were not passionate (except at home or at a hotel) and were charter members of DILLIGAF.

    If you EVER get to a NRA SHOW, SHOT SHOW etc and get to talking to folks in the booths, listen to their lines of BS and then ask them what their NRA rating is in competition. Same with the gov't types. You have to know what to ask to see if they know what they are doing.
    Last edited by Hummer; 03-16-2015, 07:46 AM.

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  • RICHFL
    replied
    Having served in the USMC shooting the M-14, AR-15, M-16, A1, A2, A3, XM-4;
    I was very happy to see a very good well thought out thread on the basics of the AR series weapons.

    The difference of shooting an AR-15 to the well known today M-4 fills books of data. What you did here was choice and pick out the basic data on parts of the weapon people need when buying their first AR platform.

    PS: Still miss shooting my old military issued M-14!!!!!

    Thank you

    GySgt USMC
    Retired

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  • KSDeputy
    replied
    Mine are both Colts, a rifle and carbine. I'm happy with them. My neighbor just built one and showed it to me, I liked it and the cost was very reasonable. I really do not need another one but you know how that is. I occasionally visit a store that has a sign that says "need has nothing to do with it".

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  • JLBIII
    replied
    Wow that was a great post full of extremely useful info. Anyone looking at buying an AR should read this first. Thanks for posting it, definitely something I'm copying to put in my WTSHTF documents folder and printing it off to put in my binder. Just in case the SHTF and all power is lost, computer blows up, or any other nastiness would ensue that would make the info irretrievable.

    Joe

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