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  • 308 is a boondoggle for shtf.

    regardless of which rifle you favor, The ammo and ammo are too heavy and bulky. There's no .22lr conversion unit for the 308' auto rifles. You can get a single shot .32 ACP chamber-insert, but the price or availability of .32 ammo is not more than 1% of that of .22lr ammo. The 308 is not our GI rifle rd and it's made for belt feds, so it's not all that accurate. Acceptance figures are 3" groups at 100 yds. So you need special ammo for it to have any sort of claim of more range than the 223. 308 ball is pee-poor as a big game rd so you need to brain the animal with it, which can be done with the 223, too. The 223 can be silenced effectively and still have a handy rifle with the silencer mounted. NOT true of the 308. If you add 10" of 308 silencer to the 20" barrel of a 308, it becomes a bipod-only club! Cut the barrel of a 308 enough to let the silenced version be still handy the velocity is reduced so much that the rds might as well be .30A, since the ballistics are no better. If shtf, the big game will all be GONE in a month or so. Snares, night vision and baiting make the 223 quite capable of braining the critters during that month or so. There's far more livestock, which can be taken silently with a .22 at night, at 10m with a brain hit, than animals bigger than deer, hogs ,or pronghorn. the 223 is well-proven to suffice for that size animal, with good hits and 60 gr softpoints. Dont settle for ball ammo, or too frangible varmint hp's or softpoints, or non-expanding target hollowpoints, and you'll be fine with the 223's stopping power. Being without the silencer, or running out of ammo, due to 308's bulk weight, or hurting yourself by carrying the extra 20 lbs of rifle and ammo, are all stupid choices. Many things DO stop 308 bullets, like 15" of hard wood, a few inches of solid concrete or bricks, or an engine block. Shooting at what you can't SEE (which is what trying to shoot thru "cover" IS) is a great way to run out of ammo, which IS more likely when you can carry only 1/3rd as much of it in the first place. If you have a brain, you wont be out and about in daylight and at night, the 308 has no range advantage over the 308 at all. No night scope gives you more than 300m of range and the 223 is well proven to be fully competitive with the 308 to 500 yds. When you know to not make noise, not be out in daylight, you'll have 10x less combat, and you'll have lots less expenditure of ammo.

  • #2
    Originally posted by registror View Post
    regardless of which rifle you favor, The ammo and ammo are too heavy and bulky. There's no .22lr conversion unit for the 308' auto rifles. You can get a single shot .32 ACP chamber-insert, but the price or availability of .32 ammo is not more than 1% of that of .22lr ammo. The 308 is not our GI rifle rd and it's made for belt feds, so it's not all that accurate. Acceptance figures are 3" groups at 100 yds. So you need special ammo for it to have any sort of claim of more range than the 223. 308 ball is pee-poor as a big game rd so you need to brain the animal with it, which can be done with the 223, too. The 223 can be silenced effectively and still have a handy rifle with the silencer mounted. NOT true of the 308. If you add 10" of 308 silencer to the 20" barrel of a 308, it becomes a bipod-only club! Cut the barrel of a 308 enough to let the silenced version be still handy the velocity is reduced so much that the rds might as well be .30A, since the ballistics are no better. If shtf, the big game will all be GONE in a month or so. Snares, night vision and baiting make the 223 quite capable of braining the critters during that month or so. There's far more livestock, which can be taken silently with a .22 at night, at 10m with a brain hit, than animals bigger than deer, hogs ,or pronghorn. the 223 is well-proven to suffice for that size animal, with good hits and 60 gr softpoints. Dont settle for ball ammo, or too frangible varmint hp's or softpoints, or non-expanding target hollowpoints, and you'll be fine with the 223's stopping power. Being without the silencer, or running out of ammo, due to 308's bulk weight, or hurting yourself by carrying the extra 20 lbs of rifle and ammo, are all stupid choices. Many things DO stop 308 bullets, like 15" of hard wood, a few inches of solid concrete or bricks, or an engine block. Shooting at what you can't SEE (which is what trying to shoot thru "cover" IS) is a great way to run out of ammo, which IS more likely when you can carry only 1/3rd as much of it in the first place. If you have a brain, you wont be out and about in daylight and at night, the 308 has no range advantage over the 308 at all. No night scope gives you more than 300m of range and the 223 is well proven to be fully competitive with the 308 to 500 yds. When you know to not make noise, not be out in daylight, you'll have 10x less combat, and you'll have lots less expenditure of ammo.
    Just thought I would stop by and disabuse you of some of your errors.
    308 is not made for belt feed. It is made for bolt rifles.
    You seem to be confusing it with 7.62x51.
    (and BTW, 223 is not our GI rifle, either 5.56 is)
    You do not need "special ammo" for 308 to have more range than 223.

    Also, when you wrote "the price or availability of .32 ammo is not more than 1% of that of .22lr ammo" you seem to have run two thoughts together. .32 is more expensive, and less available, so I agree with you.

    Now, actually, on the rest of your article, you make a lot of sense.
    Last edited by TRex2; 04-21-2021, 05:02 AM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by TRex2 View Post
      Just thought I would stop by and disabuse you of some of your errors.
      308 is not made for belt feed. It is made for bolt rifles.
      You seem to be confusing it with 7.62x51.
      (and BTW, 223 is not our GI rifle, either 5.56 is)
      You do not need "special ammo" for 308 to have more range than 223.

      Also, when you wrote "the price or availability of .32 ammo is not more than 1% of that of .22lr ammo" you seem to have run two thoughts together. .32 is more expensive, and less available, so I agree with you.

      Now, actually, on the rest of your article, you make a lot of sense.
      the 308 ball ammo, which everyone is counting upon using IS made for belt feds. Play your effing metric bs games on somebody else. You sure as hell DO need match 308 ammo. to have more effective range than the 223's 500m. Acceptance figures on 308 ball ammo are 3 moa, wich means you'll often miss a 12" wide man at 500m, even if everything else is perfect. Yes, .32 ACP ball is considerably more expensive than 22lr, altho recent events have narrowed the gap in some cases. The single loading deal is bad news, vs the 6 hits per second, 30 rd box mag of th e.22 lr conversion unit in the AR 223.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by registror View Post

        the 308 ball ammo, which everyone is counting upon using IS made for belt feds. Play your effing metric bs games on somebody else. You sure as hell DO need match 308 ammo. to have more effective range than the 223's 500m. Acceptance figures on 308 ball ammo are 3 moa, wich means you'll often miss a 12" wide man at 500m, even if everything else is perfect.
        Are you reading your standards out of a pre-1975 army manual? I used to work on an army gunnery (including machine gun) range, and that information hasn't been accurate for several years.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by registror View Post

          the 308 ball ammo, which everyone is counting upon using IS made for belt feds. Play your effing metric bs games on somebody else. You sure as hell DO need match 308 ammo. to have more effective range than the 223's 500m. Acceptance figures on 308 ball ammo are 3 moa, wich means you'll often miss a 12" wide man at 500m, even if everything else is perfect. Yes, .32 ACP ball is considerably more expensive than 22lr, altho recent events have narrowed the gap in some cases. The single loading deal is bad news, vs the 6 hits per second, 30 rd box mag of th e.22 lr conversion unit in the AR 223.
          I think that what Gun Kid is trying to explain to us is the fact that he has extremely limited knowledge regarding long range shooting. In my younger days I was very into competitive Service Rifle and Service Sniper Matches and had no problem engaging 18"x 22" targets at 500 yds during the "deliberate" stages. My average with an FN C1A1 7.62x 51mm rifle using issue ball ammo was 27 out of a possible 35 points. When we changed over to a licensed version of the M16, in 1985, on the 500 yd deliberate went to 28 out of a possible 35 points. The nice thing is that the range was located in the middle of 4 mountains and wind was minimal. I don't think that my eye site 40 years later would allow me to be this consistent at long range, but I'm still no slouch at 500 yds. For those of us that live on a bald a$$ prairie where the ranges are longer , the animals larger, and the wind drift is higher, there is no magical be all, end all caliber.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by registror View Post
            the 308 ball ammo, which everyone is counting upon using IS made for belt feds. Play your effing metric bs games on somebody else. You sure as hell DO need match 308 ammo. to have more effective range than the 223's 500m. Acceptance figures on 308 ball ammo are 3 moa, wich means you'll often miss a 12" wide man at 500m, even if everything else is perfect. Yes, .32 ACP ball is considerably more expensive than 22lr, altho recent events have narrowed the gap in some cases. The single loading deal is bad news, vs the 6 hits per second, 30 rd box mag of th e.22 lr conversion unit in the AR 223.
            There are differences between .308 and 7.62x51.
            One of the biggest difference is 7.62x51 NATO is ball (or FMJ) ammo and .308 is hunting/match ammo. The M14 and FAL, HK, CETME and others fired 7.62x51 "ball" (or FMJ) and the ammo was issued in "battle packs" and wasn't linked. There is no difference between the issue 7.62x51 supplied in battle packs and the belt feeder's link belt cans.
            Surplus military brass weighs more than .308 brass as the 7.62x51 has a thicker web or less capacity for powder. As the same amount of powder in a smaller volume generates higher pressures.

            https://www.ammoland.com/2020/10/7-6...he-difference/





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            • #7
              The Belgian machine gun the MAG58 has been adopted in both Canada and the US (under different names) is 7.62x51mm and comes linked 4 ball 1 tracer. Generally 220 rds per metal ammunition box, 4 boxes per crate.

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              • #8
                I taught myself to reload my own ..in both .223..and .308...also 30.06 calibration.

                I can make 7.7mm Japanese Arisaka ammo from 30.06 brass and reload it.

                I can make .243 ammo from .308 cases...and also make .308 cases from 30.06 brass if needed..

                I can make 7mm TCU ammo from .223 brass...

                Lots of things you can do if you teach yourself how it is done.

                I like bolt rifles for accuracy.

                Not much into semi autos..but have a few.

                Have a bolt action in .223...but it has a different rifling twist from most AR platforms...much slower twist...

                For myself...I am not that impressed with the .223/5.56mm calibration....though I am aware that there are better bullets available today versus say 25 years ago. Also today .223/5.56 mm AR calibrations stabilize heavier bullets better than in years past....has to do with the rifling twist rate.

                For me ...if I want to put a lot of lead out there....12 gauge pump....Mine will slam fire.....Olde Model Ithaca model 37..


                My non Ishmaelite .02,
                Orangetom
                Last edited by orangetom1999; 05-31-2021, 02:40 AM.

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                • #9
                  It should be made aware that GunKid for whatever reasons is both noise and recoil sensitive. Nothing to be ashamed of. Some people are just wired that way or have health issues.

                  But, he seems to be fixated on knocking the cartridge, rifles chambered in it and the owner/shooter. Usually in that order but not always.

                  And as has been stated his arguments against it are flawed to say the least.
                  Back when 7.62x51mm was widely available as either NATO, Common Wealth or similar sources I never had accuracy issues with any of it in general although some particular rifles shot particular sources of ammo better than others.
                  Same same with 5.56NATO/.223 REM. as I've shot that cartridge for a little longer.
                  Performance wise I would say both GI standard FMJ in either chambering have the same average accuracy. Again depending upon varied sources both foreign and domestic. Plus the combo of particular Rifle and Ammunition.

                  But alas GunKid has been beating the same dead horse online almost since Al Gore invented the internet.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by registror View Post

                    the 308 ball ammo, which everyone is counting upon using IS made for belt feds. Play your effing metric bs games on somebody else. You sure as hell DO need match 308 ammo. to have more effective range than the 223's 500m. Acceptance figures on 308 ball ammo are 3 moa, wich means you'll often miss a 12" wide man at 500m, even if everything else is perfect. Yes, .32 ACP ball is considerably more expensive than 22lr, altho recent events have narrowed the gap in some cases. The single loading deal is bad news, vs the 6 hits per second, 30 rd box mag of th e.22 lr conversion unit in the AR 223.
                    Who is counting on using ball? What is your source for this?

                    you have a weird hatred for the .308 / 7.62 x 51. There’s a suggestion that you may have a flinching problem, I don’t know, but some of your past posts other places suggest this may be the case.

                    you are wrong, again on ammo? You are not getting 500m with your shorty AR, and you know it - or you would if you had one.

                    only a fool would cripple their defensive rifle with the .22 unit.

                    you also don’t appear to know much about marksmanship.

                    also, if I need to post my AR-10 again, with the suppressor, I will. You’re wrong about that as well.


                    look, the .223 / 5.56 AR is a great platform - I own several.

                    if you’re going with a shorty AR in .223 / 5.56, .300 blackout will outperform it across the board, and subsonic rounds are a mag change away.

                    but the .308 / 7.62x51 is not a bad choice either. I’ve carried both in the field.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      There are two ways you can evaluate a weapon system for terminal ballistic performance and accuracy.

                      I have a 600 yard range in my back yard and a 900 yard range next to house. I have had people tell me this and that so I tell them to save up about 10 1 gal plastic milk jugs and when they get them bring them down with their weapon/ammo they get the idea their weapon is fabulous.

                      I have them shoot a jug at 25 yards, 100 yards, 200 yards ,300 yards and 600 yards. Very few have been able to hit a jug beyond 300 yards.

                      Record the jugs getting hit on cell phone.

                      Next I have a 12" diameter steel disc 1 1/4" thick and I stand it up on edge and have them shoot it at 100, 200, 300 and 600. When their ideal rifle hits the plate and does not knock it over I take them down and have them push on the plate with their little finger.

                      Do a search for Col Martin Fackler MD Army Wound Ballistics lab and will learn that the 5.56 round in both 55 and 62 grains have their highest terminal ballistic cavitation in the first 95 yards and the energy drops off quickly after that. You will also be able to view his work on 7.62 NATO.

                      Now if he was not knowledgeable on wound ballistics why did NATO ask him to author the chapter on Missile Caused Wounds in the new NATO Handbook of Emergency War Surgery. This is also on line.

                      Fackler was chairman of the International Wound Ballistics Assn for 10 years and they published magazines with no advertisement for ten years. If you had been a member to get them all was 60.00 a year for ten years.

                      https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...3pWYVVJeGlGaFE

                      Click on the above and you will have all ten years for free. I was a Charter Member
                      Last edited by Hummer; 06-10-2021, 12:24 PM.
                      Distinguished Rifleman High Power , Distinguished Rifleman Smallbore Prone, Presidents Hundred (Rifle), Palma Teams Member (2), Dewar Teams Member (2), Member 4 Man National Championship Smallbore AnySight Team, Certified Small Arms and Ammunition Test Director Aberdeen Proving Ground , Eagle Scout, AC4HT, NRA Benefactor Member, Firefighter I, Shriner

                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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                      • #12
                        much appreciated

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                        • #13
                          Also ask your combat vet friends to see if they ever saw anyone take a solid thoracic cavity hit with a 308/30.06,8MM Mauser, 7MM Mauser etc and went home to talk about it. I have never found a one. I have heard multiple stories of folks taking 5.56 hits. There was a clip from the middle east and some low life reporters talked this guy into taking a RPG out in the street and shoot it at the Marines 200 yards down the street so he goes out and kneels down and you can see him take two hits from 5.56 and he gets this puzzled look and turns to look at cameraman and then he gets one through the head and rolls him.
                          Distinguished Rifleman High Power , Distinguished Rifleman Smallbore Prone, Presidents Hundred (Rifle), Palma Teams Member (2), Dewar Teams Member (2), Member 4 Man National Championship Smallbore AnySight Team, Certified Small Arms and Ammunition Test Director Aberdeen Proving Ground , Eagle Scout, AC4HT, NRA Benefactor Member, Firefighter I, Shriner

                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by registror View Post

                            the 308 ball ammo, which everyone is counting upon using IS made for belt feds. Play your effing metric bs games on somebody else. You sure as hell DO need match 308 ammo. to have more effective range than the 223's 500m. Acceptance figures on 308 ball ammo are 3 moa, wich means you'll often miss a 12" wide man at 500m, even if everything else is perfect. Yes, .32 ACP ball is considerably more expensive than 22lr, altho recent events have narrowed the gap in some cases. The single loading deal is bad news, vs the 6 hits per second, 30 rd box mag of th e.22 lr conversion unit in the AR 223.
                            It isn't a metric game.
                            What .308 ammo is made for belt feeders? If you mean 7.62 NATO, it is supplied in cans for belt fed and also for the M14.

                            To support faster firing (feeding and ejection), most 7.62N chamber headspace is .006 to .010 longer than the.308's. The .308's pressure limit is 1200 PSI greater than the 7.62N's.


                            Hummer,
                            Dr Fackler is never incorrect unless he disagrees with GunKid, AKA registror ,LOL



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                            • #15
                              Gun Kid, aka registror hasn't posted here in over a month.
                              I assume from y'all's posts about him, he will return with a new pseudonym,
                              I wouldn't endeavor to teach him, knowing what I do about him.

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