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Has it really been 50 years with military firearms?

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  • Has it really been 50 years with military firearms?

    Man what a shock to the system!
    I started shooting military firearms 50, soon to be 51 years ago!
    There is a huge differance between what was military marksmanship back then and what happens on the modern battlefield.
    Convential marksmanship is to today's military what spears and shields were to the .577 Boxer Primed Enfield Rifle.
    But of course that does not mean that the super modern military is going to swoop down and protect you from some nut-case with an ice-pick. In fifty years I learned one thing; no matter what your level of training,for that kind of defensive work you need a good old fashioned GUN, one that goes bang every time you pull the trigger. This is the GREAT differance between the AK and the AR. This is the reason the 3rd world loves the AK and dispises the AR, this is the reason that Finland, South Africa and Isrial copied the AK not the AR, it goes bang.
    Last edited by kenno; 10-16-2008, 09:58 PM.
    The road to serfdom is paved with free electric golf carts.

  • #2
    Well said. The AK goes bang everytime you squeeze the trigger. You hear all the crap about Russian children being able to break one down and put it together in 30 seconds? Once you buy one, you will know why. Anyone can break one down and put it together in 30 seconds. 1 button, a couple of sliding moves, and it is apart.

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    • #3
      man you guys REALLY have me thinking about an ak as my first assault rifle instead of the AR i was going to build.

      Going to a gun show next month, can you give me some pricing guidelines, and what's considered bottom of the barrel ak wise, and cream of the crop? thanks
      WHAT IF THE AMERICA YOU KNEW, WAS ABOUT TO CHANGE?

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      • #4
        I have been looking into the AK platform alot lately and yes it seems very robust and simple to operate. No special tools needed to take it down. Sort of like the SKS i HAD (I never should have sold it :( ) You could take that thing apart with a .39 round or a stick or whatever! You guys have really got me considering on selling my AR stuff and going after an AK...or FN FAL.
        Acta non verba

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        • #5
          I've never fired the AK or SKS but holding them made me realize they are just to small for a 6'5" man with gorilla length arms. I respect the durability and the cartridge/accuracy is acceptable to my marksmanship skill level, lol. The price though ever increasing is still attractive.

          Ronald_THM, I am saving my fiat dollars for an SA58 also so we should exchange pricing information. Currently I am looking at a DSA Inc version for two grand with accessories but the paycheck isn't as long as the month lately, lol.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by das View Post
            I've never fired the AK or SKS but holding them made me realize they are just to small for a 6'5" man with gorilla length arms. I respect the durability and the cartridge/accuracy is acceptable to my marksmanship skill level, lol. The price though ever increasing is still attractive.

            Ronald_THM, I am saving my fiat dollars for an SA58 also so we should exchange pricing information. Currently I am looking at a DSA Inc version for two grand with accessories but the paycheck isn't as long as the month lately, lol.
            LoL, that was sort of an evil thought i had there at the end! I doubt an FAL is in store for me anytime soon, unless i find a great deal at the gun show next month. I got to check one out a while back (So nice, it was in great shape with that funny scope).
            Acta non verba

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            • #7
              Diesel,

              Might I suggest AR15.com site. They have communities for both the AR & AK, and each community has build it yourself threads along with manufacturers ratings. Both platforms have their supporters and detractors. You can build either any way you wish with minimal "expertise". Guess it all depends on what's available in your AO regarding ammo, parts, etc.
              ENJOY AND STAY SAFE

              TEOTWAWKI happens to all of us everyday. Always be prepared!

              P.A.W.T. = PROUD AMERICAN WHITE TRASH

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Ronald_THM View Post
                LoL, that was sort of an evil thought i had there at the end! I doubt an FAL is in store for me anytime soon, unless i find a great deal at the gun show next month. I got to check one out a while back (So nice, it was in great shape with that funny scope).
                Some are available at reasonable prices. I found one for a grand this week that was within driving distance but I knew it wasn't the best use of my money so I let it go. I am still researching if metric or inch is the way to go with the FAL.

                Comment


                • #9
                  There's hundreds of thousands of troops around the world who'd disagree with the sentiment that an AR doesn't 'go bang' every time you pull the trigger, many of them on the receiving end of the 5.56.

                  The reality is this: the AK was designed to sacrifice accuracy for durability/reliability, thus the gas piston system and the 7.62 round. While its ease of operation and simplicity cannot be argued, the fact remains that it was not made for the way wars are waged today, its a product of an entirely different military mindset and designed for a whole different class of people/supply chain as what's available here in the US.

                  I'm not arguing that the AK isn't a great weapon, it most certainly is one of the best, I'm just saying that its a product of a forlorn age who's uses were different then our own. While it certainly does have a place in this day and age it is in no way hands-down better then the AR/Stoner design. Honestly, if you tell me that the AR is fickle and needs constant maintenance I'll counter with run one in the field for awhile (which you never have I've you've made this statement, or it was Vietnam-era, much has changed since then) and you'll see its ever bit as durable and reliable as is needed on today's battlefield.

                  The AK/AR argument comes down to 2 things, your mission and what is available to you in terms of other weapons and ammo, pick the right tool for the job at hand. With some many choices now available to use in terms of 'assault rifles' in this day and age, these rifles fill different operational standards now. If you'll plan to spend months living a 'Mad Max existence,' living in the field under duress or without the benefit of a safe place and use your rifle for everything including a hammer, by all means go with an AK but large amounts of ammo is substantially heavier in 7.62 then 5.56, trust me I've humped both rounds in quantity many miles. But if you plan like I do and have a secure, fortified BIL which you plan to defend until the end (its where my non-mobile family is located) which offers other people to help with defense and the possible need for long range (>100 meters) suppressive fire with occasional CQB, my go-to is the AR for accuracy, muscle memory, ammo availability, ballistics, and too many other factors to list here.

                  Don't take me wrong here, if I had to bug out to the woods tomorrow in a SHTF scenario and could only carry one rifle, I'd loving caress my AR, tell her I'll miss her and be back, then put it back in the safe and retrieve my AK (again assuming it will be a defensive weapon primarily and that I'll be alone) that hasn't been cleaned in about 3 years and absolutely KNOW that I can trust my life to it.

                  I felt compelled to post as the anti-AR sentiment is high here with no just cause, like ANY weapon, it might not be the right tool for the job at that moment. Your life and possibly mine depend on you being able to make that distinction when the time comes WITHOUT personal bias, but based on facts (we all know some jagoff who thinks a 7.62 AK is a sniper rifle or that the sound of a racking shotgun sends people running or that one weapon is the end-all-be-all to war fighting/self defense or that the 5.56 was designed to wound, thus taking more people out of the fight. all these thoughts are fallacy and often voiced by people with ZERO working knowledge of their own). Never discount anything based on personal prejudice in the face of facts and, again, CHOOSE THE RIGHT TOOL FOR THE JOB. An AK is a meat clever while an AR is a fillet knife, would you skin game with a clever or cut electrical cable with a fillet knife? If so, neither you nor your tools will last long after TS officially Hs TF...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by das View Post
                    Some are available at reasonable prices. I found one for a grand this week that was within driving distance but I knew it wasn't the best use of my money so I let it go. I am still researching if metric or inch is the way to go with the FAL.
                    Metric. When you start pricing Inch stuff you will find the mags are about 5 times the price, and parts are about the same markup. Check out www.gunpartsguy.com for info.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by das View Post
                      I've never fired the AK or SKS but holding them made me realize they are just to small for a 6'5" man with gorilla length arms. I respect the durability and the cartridge/accuracy is acceptable to my marksmanship skill level, lol. The price though ever increasing is still attractive.

                      Ronald_THM, I am saving my fiat dollars for an SA58 also so we should exchange pricing information. Currently I am looking at a DSA Inc version for two grand with accessories but the paycheck isn't as long as the month lately, lol.

                      I am 6' 01" and the Saiga version of the AK is great for us knuckle draggers. Cheap too. It is pure AK with a standard American type stock.

                      I do like my FAL. You can check out photos of both in my profile.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CPF1570-316 View Post
                        There's hundreds of thousands of troops around the world who'd disagree with the sentiment that an AR doesn't 'go bang' every time you pull the trigger, many of them on the receiving end of the 5.56.

                        The reality is this: the AK was designed to sacrifice accuracy for durability/reliability, thus the gas piston system and the 7.62 round. While its ease of operation and simplicity cannot be argued, the fact remains that it was not made for the way wars are waged today, its a product of an entirely different military mindset and designed for a whole different class of people/supply chain as what's available here in the US.

                        I'm not arguing that the AK isn't a great weapon, it most certainly is one of the best, I'm just saying that its a product of a forlorn age who's uses were different then our own. While it certainly does have a place in this day and age it is in no way hands-down better then the AR/Stoner design. Honestly, if you tell me that the AR is fickle and needs constant maintenance I'll counter with run one in the field for awhile (which you never have I've you've made this statement, or it was Vietnam-era, much has changed since then) and you'll see its ever bit as durable and reliable as is needed on today's battlefield.

                        The AK/AR argument comes down to 2 things, your mission and what is available to you in terms of other weapons and ammo, pick the right tool for the job at hand. With some many choices now available to use in terms of 'assault rifles' in this day and age, these rifles fill different operational standards now. If you'll plan to spend months living a 'Mad Max existence,' living in the field under duress or without the benefit of a safe place and use your rifle for everything including a hammer, by all means go with an AK but large amounts of ammo is substantially heavier in 7.62 then 5.56, trust me I've humped both rounds in quantity many miles. But if you plan like I do and have a secure, fortified BIL which you plan to defend until the end (its where my non-mobile family is located) which offers other people to help with defense and the possible need for long range (>100 meters) suppressive fire with occasional CQB, my go-to is the AR for accuracy, muscle memory, ammo availability, ballistics, and too many other factors to list here.

                        Don't take me wrong here, if I had to bug out to the woods tomorrow in a SHTF scenario and could only carry one rifle, I'd loving caress my AR, tell her I'll miss her and be back, then put it back in the safe and retrieve my AK (again assuming it will be a defensive weapon primarily and that I'll be alone) that hasn't been cleaned in about 3 years and absolutely KNOW that I can trust my life to it.

                        I felt compelled to post as the anti-AR sentiment is high here with no just cause, like ANY weapon, it might not be the right tool for the job at that moment. Your life and possibly mine depend on you being able to make that distinction when the time comes WITHOUT personal bias, but based on facts (we all know some jagoff who thinks a 7.62 AK is a sniper rifle or that the sound of a racking shotgun sends people running or that one weapon is the end-all-be-all to war fighting/self defense or that the 5.56 was designed to wound, thus taking more people out of the fight. all these thoughts are fallacy and often voiced by people with ZERO working knowledge of their own). Never discount anything based on personal prejudice in the face of facts and, again, CHOOSE THE RIGHT TOOL FOR THE JOB. An AK is a meat clever while an AR is a fillet knife, would you skin game with a clever or cut electrical cable with a fillet knife? If so, neither you nor your tools will last long after TS officially Hs TF...
                        I've owned both. While I respect your opinion, and know how a lot of folks feel about the AR/Stoner design, I cannot share that opinion. Here in the desert where the dirt blows 24/7 and a rifle would be mainly a self defense weapon, I much prefer the AK. I am starting to learn that my FAL is almost as reliable and and able to withstand the elements.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Rustyshakelford View Post
                          I am 6' 01" and the Saiga version of the AK is great for us knuckle draggers. Cheap too. It is pure AK with a standard American type stock.

                          I do like my FAL. You can check out photos of both in my profile.
                          Agreed the version you have would be much different to the classic AK style I have experienced.

                          Maybe the best of the SKS and the AK combined is a way to look at it?

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                          • #14
                            Das
                            I imagine that at 6'5" most rifles are too short for you. If I were in your position I would buy a surplus or after market stock and add a spacer to the butt. If looks were important I would then coat it with paint or that bed-liner stuff.
                            The road to serfdom is paved with free electric golf carts.

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                            • #15
                              Good idea Kenno. I guess this is why I am attracted to the longer rifles where the clip isn't inside my elbow.

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