Shotguns

[Buggyout]

[QUOTE=Big Guy;63614]I am an 870 man, simply because that is what I use at work and therefore most familiar with. I have built a few for freinds on mine, they are inexspensive and very "Upgradeable". TO me it's pretty simple, go with what you know and can afford. I think the shotgun is one of the most underappreciated firearms.
As with ANY firearm, TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING and more TRAINING.[/QUOTE

I grew up with an 870 Wingmaster. I loved that gun. Our department used 500s. I switched to Mossberg, but would love to get back into Remington!

[Big Guy]

I am an 870 man, simply because that is what I use at work and therefore most familiar with. I have built a few for freinds on mine, they are inexspensive and very "Upgradeable". TO me it's pretty simple, go with what you know and can afford. I think the shotgun is one of the most underappreciated firearms.
As with ANY firearm, TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING and more TRAINING.

[Buggyout]

I can define average when it comes to this subject....someone who owns a weapon(s) who has never had any real training on how to use in any type of real situation....which is less than 1/2 percent of gun owners....and the other 99.5 % should get some kind of training.....and yes we each will in one way or another decide which is best.....but, unless you have been there do not try and tell me what has basis in fact or not.....give an average woman a shotgun or a pistol ...tell her point and shoot at a upper torso target at whatever range and see which weapon she hits target with more......that is basis in fact......

I was a cop for 12 years. I forget how many shotgun classes/refresher courses I have gone too. I would guess probably at least once a year or so. This is good advice.

[drt4lfe]

I can define average when it comes to this subject....someone who owns a weapon(s) who has never had any real training on how to use in any type of real situation....which is less than 1/2 percent of gun owners....and the other 99.5 % should get some kind of training.....and yes we each will in one way or another decide which is best.....but, unless you have been there do not try and tell me what has basis in fact or not.....give an average woman a shotgun or a pistol ...tell her point and shoot at a upper torso target at whatever range and see which weapon she hits target with more......that is basis in fact......

[RatLife]

I have a model 500 that i really like. They are very resonably priced and very versitale. Usually its at the house with the 18 inch barrel and loaded with number 4s,but i also have a 28 inch barrel which i can quickly put on if i wanna go get some crock pot filler. We used some 500s in Iraq. Racking the slide is universal deterrent. If your dealing with a person or group that kanda wanted to get froggy but wasnt sure,hearing you jack a round into the chamber would help them decide to calm down and think about it a little more.

[Mooswa]

I served both in the military 21 years and 7 years as a deputy Sheriff in Florida. My county has no large city within it borders so when we need to enter a location we team up with who ever answered the call. We all had SWAT training that is updated every 6 months and requal in the tire house with live ammo every year. Our first guy into any building uses a shotgun with #4 shot. it will take out a leg within 16 feet (End of a hallway) the next 2/4 guys used Glocks the last guy in has suppressor AR-15/M-16's and is a qualified sniper from the Federal LEO school in GA. just up the road.

We (Police) all use shotguns in extreme situations - it gives an ability that even the most drugged up person understand when they hear that pump action in use. You do not get that with an M-16 or pistol!!! There is your X factor.

Absolutely concur. I am ex LEO as well. And for those who do not know, hearing the pump action is a BIG X factor psychologically. This is especially true for home defense. When an intruder hears the occupant of the house pump a round into the chamber they are going to hightail it and that will be the end of things 99% of the time. Nothing makes people wet their drawers faster than that sound. :)

[jezcruzen]

drt4lfe, each of us has to make our own choice about this and every other issue in the end. Making assumptions about "average" people and what they feel comfortable with really has no basis in fact. After all, what is an "average person", anyway. I think that definition would change because we each probably have differing opinions on what average really is.

I'm perfectly comfortable with all my weapons, including shotguns. In fact, a Saiga 12 resides in my bedroom. But so does a Glock and a XD. I would consider myself to be just an average guy.

I think shotguns figure so prominently in home defense because people think shotguns require the least amount of training and even the "woman of the house" can employ one. I disagree with that notion. But I do absolutely agree with you regarding the necessity of training on a regular basis regardless of what home defense weapon one chooses, even if it is a sword. Be careful our there! :-)

[drt4lfe]

Shotgun home defense

I was not using any reference to in house entry or clearing house trained personel....how many average citizens have any training on police/military entry or clearing tactics ? probably less than 1/2 percent....
The fact that average person will have way more confidence with short barrel shotgun than pistol also helps if the situation ever arises...average person will not search house ( if they have any sense ) with any weapon...they will ready weapon, call 911 and stay where they are...they will not have to swing and control shotgun in tight quarters....and yes this can be debated like 45 versus everything else....a 6 to 12 inch shotgun pattern will always hit more than a single 45 caliber pattern....your miss by a hair with a 45 means intruder is hands on at 12 feet or less...a miss by a few inches with shotgun will very well mean ..lead in flesh...i'll take lead in flesh any day....regardless of weapon, shotgun or pistol....if you do not pratice on a regular basis and confident in your ability....chances are you will miss........

[jezcruzen]

"We (Police) all use shotguns in extreme situations - it gives an ability that even the most drugged up person understand when they hear that pump action in use. You do not get that with an M-16 or pistol!!! There is your X factor"

I would have thought a shell had already been racked into the chamber PRIOR to any entry. ;-)

[RICHFL]

I served both in the military 21 years and 7 years as a deputy Sheriff in Florida. My county has no large city within it borders so when we need to enter a location we team up with who ever answered the call. We all had SWAT training that is updated every 6 months and requal in the tire house with live ammo every year. Our first guy into any building uses a shotgun with #4 shot. it will take out a leg within 16 feet (End of a hallway) the next 2/4 guys used Glocks the last guy in has suppressor AR-15/M-16's and is a qualified sniper from the Federal LEO school in GA. just up the road.

We (Police) all use shotguns in extreme situations - it gives an ability that even the most drugged up person understand when they hear that pump action in use. You do not get that with an M-16 or pistol!!! There is your X factor.

[jezcruzen]

The debate regarding shotguns vs pistols for interior home protection is much like the .45acp vs everything else debate. No definitive conclusions can scientifically be drawn, only opinions.

First, let me state that I am not trained in house clearing. Regardless of the weapon I reach for, my intent would not be to slip around in a darkened house searching for an intruder, but to dial 911 after removing my family to a safe area and set up and wait for the intruder. IDing the noise as an uninvited intruder and not a family member is a major priority. Firing away at unidentified targets in the dark of night is not a good thing!

Shotgun loads do not spread significantly at all at normal interior distances. What are we talking.... four yards or less across a room? I don't know about the rest of you, but my house just isn't that large. Look at the five-yard target provided by another poster from tests he himself conducted. Notice any spread? Nope! Its basically one big slug... a single projectile using the shells most of us have. Now, this load is coming out of a barrel approx. 18" long, plus receiver/stock... so lets call is 36" total. Do you think you can move the muzzle end of that 36" "stick" around fast enough in the constricted interior confines of a normal residence to stay on what may be a rapidly moving target? Can you avoid banging it up against door jambs, interior walls, or furniture with the adrenaline pumping? Since most opt for a pump gun, can you be sure you can rack another round without short-stroking and creating a jam? Could you keep an intruder from grabbing the barrel and neutralizing your ability to shoot and wrestling the gun away from you, especially if you are a female confronted by a more powerful male?

You can draw your own conclusions. But there is a reason why entry team members are not all armed with shotguns.

[Oscar Wilde]

....most trained law enforcement officers will miss also...

Welcome to the forum drt4lf. I read of an encounter where two leos and a perp exchanged rounds. I don't recall the count, in excess of forty rounds .... none of the three were hit and they were close enough to have thrown the weapons at each other.

Practice, practice, practice ....

O.W.

[Defcon090]

Slowz..............thanks for the examples. Think I will stay with low recoil 2-3/4" shells. The minis would probably be okay with bolt action and single shot/double barrel guns.

[slowz1k]

I did some pattern tests using Centurion mini-shells a few years ago. I was using the Mossberg 500 pictured. Recoil was slightly less than Federal 00 low recoil loads. Cycling was iffy. As long as the gun remained relatively level the shells would cycle find. However if the barrel was at too much of an angle I would experience feeding problems, usually where the shell fell out of place on the elevator after leaving the tube. Patterns were not good at all... Especially compared to Federal 00 with flight control (Also pictured.) Target was a standard 8.5x11 sheet of printer paper.




Mossberg500



Cent Mini-shell at 5yds



Fed 00 FlightControl at 5 yds



Cent Mini-shell at 10yds



Fed 00 FlightControl at 10 yds



Cent Mini-shell at 15yds



Fed 00 FlightControl at 15 yds

[drt4lfe]

hhhmmnn.....scared man or woman in middle of night ...intruder in house....chance of hit with pistol in life or death situation when one shot will probably be all you get.....slim....very slim....Shotgun.chance of hit, even a minor hit which usually stops engagement....fair to good....proven fact over and over...average man or woman will hit a man sized target at short range with a shotgun before they will with a pistol. The average gun owner does not shoot anywhere near enough rounds to be fully competent to hit a man in a bad situation.....most trained law enforcement officers will miss also...hence reality TV that shows footage of trained officers missing at close range. Anyone who feels shotgun is not a inside the home self defense weapon is not thinking straight....I have 14yrs. military service and have been deployed to Afghanistan....soldiers under fire have missed enemy with whole belts of ammo from M249 and M240 automatic weapons...a 410 pump 18" barrel or 20 gauge double 16 to 18 inch barrels is an effective home defense weapon and always will be.....the bottom line has always been.....you have to hit what you aim at....