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  • #31
    Ok before I give my opinion let me give you my qualifications:

    21 years Enlisted USMC through 2 wars, during that time qualified and trained as instructor for 870 Rem shotgun for USMC. Was lead instructor for 3rd mar div 1982-1984. Upon retirement became deputy sheriff here in Fl. I have used 12 ga shotguns 2 times. Once in combat, and once in self defense at home.

    This forum is about survival. any tool we have must (MUST) preform more then one function to be usable, and effective. The shotgun is used for hunting animals up to and including black bear. It is used as a defensive weapon.

    I carry one instead of a side arm for one reason. (RANGE) a hand gun's range is maxed out at 35-45 yards, and that is with a lot of practice. A shotgun with sabot is good to 200 yards with a little practice. So while you shoot off 30 rounds and not hit me at 150 yards, I can shot once from the sitting or prone, and you will be down for good. Did it once in combat!

    In home defense I have seen a lot of damage to other areas of the house, when a hand gun is fired in the house. You can ask, why is there no other people dead from stray rounds when this happens? It is because that first shot has most people hitting the floor and stay there until its all done. But I did respond 3 times where a weapon did in fact hit another person through a wall and became a victim.

    ALL THE ABOVE WAS BASED ON MY EXPERIENCES OF THE LAST 35 YEARS.

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    • #32
      I have a mossburg 500 AT cut down to barely legal with packmyer grips and I believe that anyone that wants to come into my home will leave with a little more weight to them.
      Last edited by tbkbtk123; 01-29-2012, 04:32 PM. Reason: Poor spelling

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      • #33
        Mick, I enjoyed reading your post. It was sincere and to the point. You seem to have been well-trained and have had the opportunities to actually use that training in real-world situations.

        You mentioned that your father owned a security training company. I'm sure that you benefited from having that resource so available to you. I would love to be able to attend training classes to learn the best tactics while owning the best hardware in which to do it. But I can't, and neither can most of us out here. I just can't afford it. $500 for a weekend plus travel, lodging, and meals is just more than I can do considering the other responsibilities I have, as do most others. I don't have the time or money (and the flexibility any longer) to become the civilian version of a "Tier 1" anything.

        While we may seem ignorant to you, Mick, I can say honestly that we are doing everything we can with what we have. Many cannot afford a $800 - $1500 M4orgery plus mags/ammo. But they can afford a $250 Mossberg and a box of shells.

        I'm fortunate in that I have been able to accumulate some "things" over the years. I have handguns stashed around the house as well as three in my bedroom, where I also keep an AK47 and a Saiga 12 w/12 rd drum mag that I restored back into its intended AK configuration. I have extra 10-rd stick mags for the Saiga 12 handy as well.

        I've never shot anyone, or shot AT anyone (though there have been times I would have liked too) If the time ever comes that I will have to, I hope that I won't flub it. I don't think I will.

        Please keep posting, Mick. I think you give us all a lot to think about.

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        • #34
          I just wrote about this very topic on my blog:
          http://surviveinthesuburbs.blogspot....n-suburbs.html


          And did a review on the 590:
          http://surviveinthesuburbs.blogspot.com/


          My next review is for the Mossberg 930 SPX, which I bought Friday.
          surviveinthesuburbs.blogspot.com

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          • #35
            I seem to remember a few years ago this "shotguns are worthless" mentality among our SWAT team....They quit carrying them for a couple years....That's the way this stuff goes, once a "train of thought" is presented by a well respected source Navy Seal, Army Ranger, LAPD, NYPD or Et Cetera then it is "the only way" and everyone that doesn't subscribe to it is an idiot.

            Think about it like this.... What would it be like to be shot with a shotgun loaded 3" mag 00 buck at 12 feet? 7-9 rounds hitting you all at once at 1200 fps (Im guessing on the balistics)...WHat if you were shot a second time or third?

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            • #36
              That's because SWAT can always radio for someone to bring gear from the truck. Let the "shotguns are worthless" guy carry the breaching ram from door to door between multiple breaches and see how he feels about it then.

              Anyone who doesn't recognize a shotgun as a very viable (if not THE most viable) home defense platform, probably isn't worth listening to on the subject. RICHFL, you didn't need to list your qualifications in your post. Your points are valid, regardless of your qualifications. Your points make sense, lots of it.

              Comparing central american jungle ops, and middle eastern VIP work to suburban home defense is rediculous at best. My 590A1 has 19 rounds of 00 Buck on it when I pick it up. My secondary is a G23, which is on my person....and will assist me getting to my 590 should i need it. I'm not on a "mission", I'm repelling people from my house. It's a simple as that. My wife or my 12 year old son can pick up my 590 and use it as easily and almost as accurately as I can.....because it's simple and reliable.

              If you want to cut 30 rounds loose from an "automatic" carbine in a 3 acre cul-de-sac containing 12 vinyl sided homes.....you go right ahead. I'll read about your grand jury indictment in the paper.
              surviveinthesuburbs.blogspot.com

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              • #37
                You puts the correct response to the exercise of home defense.

                The law has always taken the view that when do you stop using deadly force. When is enough. The most that you can get from a lawyer/judge is "...when there is no longer a deadly threat in your immediate area.."! Go beyond that point such as stalking a wounded threat outside your property/house would be considered a violation of the law! Let the cops do their job.

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                • #38
                  First point, The civilian word for Collateral Damage is murder (or manslaughter if you're lucky)....(Not to mention, a civil suit)

                  Second, look at this shotgun....I want it....Maybe not for home defense so much, but check out the action!!

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ2t-okpUik

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Johnny73 View Post
                    I want it....Maybe not for home defense so much, but check out the action!!

                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ2t-okpUik
                    Impressive ....

                    O.W.
                    Things are seldom what they seem.

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                    • #40
                      Hermonos 12 gauge side by side. It's a Spanish made shotgun with a pheasant barrel, full choke. Sits at the head of the bed loaded for action. I can clear the hall and then pull the Dan Wesson 357 Magnum while the wife reloads the shotgun. Weapons strategically placed throughout the house. My front door will be their last door. (Trespassers will be shot and the survivors will be shot again. We don't call 911 out here.)

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                      • #41
                        Was at the Chantilly Gun Show this past weekend and saw some of the 2" mini shotgun shells but didn't buy any, yet. I've heard that they don't work in some guns except for single shot style guns! (makes sense) Has anyone tried these 2" minis with good results or not. I have a Mossberg 500 with extended mag barrel.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Defcon090 View Post
                          Was at the Chantilly Gun Show this past weekend and saw some of the 2" mini shotgun shells but didn't buy any, yet. I've heard that they don't work in some guns except for single shot style guns! (makes sense) Has anyone tried these 2" minis with good results or not. I have a Mossberg 500 with extended mag barrel.
                          I would like to know as well . Good Question .
                          Robert W
                          Democracy Will Cease To Exist When You Take Away From Those Who Are Willing To Work And Give to Those Who Are Not.-Thomas Jefferson

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                          • #43
                            hhhmmnn.....scared man or woman in middle of night ...intruder in house....chance of hit with pistol in life or death situation when one shot will probably be all you get.....slim....very slim....Shotgun.chance of hit, even a minor hit which usually stops engagement....fair to good....proven fact over and over...average man or woman will hit a man sized target at short range with a shotgun before they will with a pistol. The average gun owner does not shoot anywhere near enough rounds to be fully competent to hit a man in a bad situation.....most trained law enforcement officers will miss also...hence reality TV that shows footage of trained officers missing at close range. Anyone who feels shotgun is not a inside the home self defense weapon is not thinking straight....I have 14yrs. military service and have been deployed to Afghanistan....soldiers under fire have missed enemy with whole belts of ammo from M249 and M240 automatic weapons...a 410 pump 18" barrel or 20 gauge double 16 to 18 inch barrels is an effective home defense weapon and always will be.....the bottom line has always been.....you have to hit what you aim at....

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                            • #44
                              I did some pattern tests using Centurion mini-shells a few years ago. I was using the Mossberg 500 pictured. Recoil was slightly less than Federal 00 low recoil loads. Cycling was iffy. As long as the gun remained relatively level the shells would cycle find. However if the barrel was at too much of an angle I would experience feeding problems, usually where the shell fell out of place on the elevator after leaving the tube. Patterns were not good at all... Especially compared to Federal 00 with flight control (Also pictured.) Target was a standard 8.5x11 sheet of printer paper.




                              Mossberg500



                              Cent Mini-shell at 5yds



                              Fed 00 FlightControl at 5 yds



                              Cent Mini-shell at 10yds



                              Fed 00 FlightControl at 10 yds



                              Cent Mini-shell at 15yds



                              Fed 00 FlightControl at 15 yds
                              Last edited by slowz1k; 02-24-2012, 08:39 PM.
                              The 12ga.... It's not just for rabbits anymore.

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                              • #45
                                Slowz..............thanks for the examples. Think I will stay with low recoil 2-3/4" shells. The minis would probably be okay with bolt action and single shot/double barrel guns.

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