Shotguns

[Diesel]

What do you guys think makes the best home defense / tactical shotgun?

You guys like the Mossberg 590?

[Mick]

The best home defence/tactical shotgun is something other than a shotgun.

I'll take a 590 or 500 over an 870.

I'll take a 930SP over the 590 or 500.

I'll take a Browning Gold or BPS, or Remington SP-10 in 10-ga., 3.5" over anything in 12-ga.

I'll take a good carbine or a good pistol over a shotgun for home defence any day of the week. BTDT. No thanks.

The shotgun's role in a tactical environment is limited. Veeeeeeery limited. It basically has two distinct functions: as a breaching tool in an urban environment; and for a pointman to deliver suppressive fire during a contact until the remainder of the force can engage. Beyond that, its actual use as a weapon in a military/police environment is miniscule. Everybody is moving away from shotguns, and toward automatic carbines, and for good reason.

[Diesel]

re shotgun

yeah well, When you can hook me up with an "automatic" carbine let me know lol :)

Untill then i think i will add a shotgun to my arsenal :) leaning towards the 590

[das]

Automatic weapons are not impossible just prohibitively expensive. In my opinion they are a terrible survival tool. The 10-20 grand you drop on a SINGLE M16/G3/AK-47 could buy you an arsenal of good quality weapons, ammo and training.

The shotguns role is to keep someone out of your bedroom and away from your family. I agree it has no use as a combat weapon unless you are clearing tunnels MAYBE. For use in a confined place where you have to worry about rounds going through walls and hitting neighbors/family though...can't be beat.

Don't imagine for a second that HAVING a shotgun, without training and being READY mentally/physically to defend what is yours, is enough. More and more I realize that as I wrap up my preparations what I still have to achieve is this aspect of survival.

I pray each of us never has to find out if we are capable of taking a life.

[jerry]

the marines still use the 590 . i beleive with all my heart that the best shotgun is the one u have . i am not trying to be funny isaw a video of a guy with an h&r or an nef single shot and he was making it run very well . his fire was accurate and rapid , granted he practiced alot but he was very effective.

[Aftermath]

I can agree with that, the bottom line is a shotgun is better than no shotgun, right? :)

[bug_out]

Here are some pics of some good setups. Also, DAS and MICK: Before I rough you both up a little about your opinions (:p) what is your experience so I know where you are coming from? Are you regurgitating things you have read or heard? Do you have 1st hand experience? Just curious before I shed light on all the things wrong with the mindset that gauges are outdated, limited, useless, and/or not a combat weapon.

[Diesel]

that a 590 in the first pic on the bottom?

Nice gear ;)

[Mick]

Here are some pics of some good setups. Also, DAS and MICK: Before I rough you both up a little about your opinions (:p) what is your experience so I know where you are coming from? Are you regurgitating things you have read or heard? Do you have 1st hand experience? Just curious before I shed light on all the things wrong with the mindset that gauges are outdated, limited, useless, and/or not a combat weapon.

I was trained on the shotgun by Tier 1 soldiers who specialise in training other Tier 1 soldiers, mostly courtesy of your tax dollars...provided that you're an American.

I used the shotgun on point, running patrols in the jungle in Central America, and in the jungles and bush of Africa; while providing protection for convoys and V.I.P.s in Africa and M.E. countries; on D.A. ops and close-protection in the M.E. and the F.S.U.; on close-protection detail on a ranch in southern California, and to defend against a home invasion.

Note: "used" as opposed to "carried".

I do not feel that shotguns are outdated or useless; I feel that they are a niche weapon, and they require a lot of really, really good training (that most people won't get) and a tremendous amount of self-discipline (that most people don't have or will never cultivate) to be used safely and effectively in the high-speed environment of a gunfight. The traditional shotgun's design limits it's usefulness, in my experience, as weapon for personal defence or on a tactical team. I see it as more of a tool than a weapon.

The floor is yours...

[bug_out]

I was trained on the shotgun by Tier 1 soldiers who specialise in training other Tier 1 soldiers, mostly courtesy of your tax dollars...provided that you're an American.

..........1stSFOD-D? If that's the case... while I have no reason to not believe you since you haven't provided falsehoods here yet, that's hard to swallow for a few reasons. Please clarify.

I used the shotgun on point, running patrols in the jungle in Central America, and in the jungles and bush of Africa; while providing protection for convoys and V.I.P.s in Africa and M.E. countries; on D.A. ops and close-protection in the M.E. and the F.S.U.; on close-protection detail on a ranch in southern California, and to defend against a home invasion.

Note: "used" as opposed to "carried".

BODS? Again.... see above. Please clarify.

I do not feel that shotguns are outdated or useless; I feel that they are a niche weapon, and they require a lot of really, really good training (that most people won't get) and a tremendous amount of self-discipline (that most people don't have or will never cultivate) to be used safely and effectively in the high-speed environment of a gunfight. The traditional shotgun's design limits it's usefulness, in my experience, as weapon for personal defence or on a tactical team. I see it as more of a tool than a weapon.

The floor is yours...

Totally agree on the amount of training to use them successfully. Will agree as well to it being a niche weapon to some degree. Do you have any experience in the "high speed environment of a gunfight"?

Regarding limited usefulness: Is it best deployed in the jungle or the desert? Nope. But we could find arenas that any weapon/tool is not suited for. The singling out of the gauge is what I don't get.

[Mick]

..........1stSFOD-D? If that's the case... while I have no reason to not believe you since you haven't provided falsehoods here yet, that's hard to swallow for a few reasons. Please clarify.

My father retired after thirty-two years in S.F.; 15 as an operator. He co-owns a company that provides unique training and security solutions to qualified entities. The majority of the instructor cadre are former Tier 1. I trained there. I've worked for them on occasion.

BODS? Again.... see above. Please clarify.

I was with Sandline before the restructuring, and I'm an I.B.A. alum.

I have also been a reserve P.O., and a member of the instructor cadre for a municipal P.D. and a S.D. here in Southwest FL.

Do you have any experience in the "high speed environment of a gunfight"?

Yep.

Regarding limited usefulness: Is it best deployed in the jungle or the desert? Nope. But we could find arenas that any weapon/tool is not suited for. The singling out of the gauge is what I don't get.

Diesel's question was fairly specific; at least, I interpreted it as being specific. The way I read it was, "What's the best tactical configuration for a shotgun, because I'm going to get one and use it as my go-to for defending myself inside of my home." If that's not the way the question was intended, then I apologise for my misinterpretation.

I'm not saying that the shotgun doesn't have a place in the armory or telling Diesel, or anybody else, not to get one; I'm saying that it isn't the best choice for home defence and, just because military and police tactical teams use them for certain things, doesn't make them the heat for everything and everybody. A person has to know, in advance, how the shotgun is best employed, and be aware of its mechanical limitations and attributes.

People who want a gun--especially a first gun (not saying this is Diesel's first gun. I don't know; I haven't read enough on this forum to find that information; I'm just speaking generally-to defend themselves at home, usually want a shotgun because they think it's the be-all, end-all. Worse, because their buddy who is a cop or used to be a cop or who was neighbours with a cop or something like that said to get one. Never mind that the buddy has probably never used a shotgun in a gunfight, much less used it at oh-dark-thirty in his own livingroom while trying to get his kid or his significant other's kid back up the stairs to a safe zone.

When we talk about "home defence" what we're really talking about is the use of lethal force inside of the home after somebody has gotten the drop on us. Standing on the front porch after a natural disaster, carrying a scary looking boomstick is not "defence"; it is "deterrent". I'm just using that as an illustration, so don't anybody get upset that I'm stereotyping them, please. What I'm saying is that, if you are engaged in self-defence, then violence is imminent or is already occurring. If you are engaged in home-defence, then that same shit is happening inside of your own house.

Where do most normal people keep a shotgun inside of their homes? They sure don't walk around with it slung across their backs. It's in a corner, the gun cabinet, the back of the closet, under the bed, or someplace not immediately accessible when the defender is in the kitchen or doing the laundry or playing in the garden with the rugrats. Defence means the shit is going down right here, right now. No en garde. No pause button. No Mulligans. If a person wants to stay alive, said person needs to be practical; that means they have to be strapped all the time. Who carries a shotgun while they're making a midnight snack?

The shotgun has meager capacity and it is slow to reload. I don't think I've ever seen a twelve-gauge with the minimum, legal barrel length of 18-inches come from the factory with more than an 8-round capacity. there are some who will argue that, if they need more than 8 shots to finish a fight then they're doing something wrong and deserve to get shot. I've actually had people say that to me. No shit. Idiots. They're usually Garand nuthuggers or cowboy action shooters. I'd like to hear what they have to say after the've been in a real fight. Oh, wait...that's right...

The reality is that the defender will probably have to reload. He/she will have to reload because of multiple hostiles; he/she will have to reload because of multiple misses; he/she will have to reload because the only way to guarantee instant incapacitation is a C.N.S. disruption and even the best of us aren't always that lucky. That's the way life is. The defender does not know that one or two shots will neutralise the threat, and shouldn't ever count on that happening. Shoot to neutralise, period. If that means dumping a full mag into a hostile at contact range, so be it.

The shotgun is slow to reload. It's even slower in to reload in a gunfight. It is slower still when the gunfight is in extremely close quarters. If you don't believe me, get a friend, a shotgun, and one of those dry-fire shells. Go to opposite corners of the biggest room in your house, one of you with the shotgun playing the good guy; the other playing the bad guy. Good guy: take aim and drop the hammer on the empty chamber. Bad guy: start charging and throwing furnishings like your life depends on it as soon as you hear the "click", while the good guy tries to reload. Let me know how that works out for you.

Some people will advocate the shoot two, load 2 method of keeping the shotgun in the fight. It's great in theory and works fine if the shooter has cover or concealment, or a wing man, is well trained, and isn't inside of a typical room in a residential building with him. I do not advocate this method because I've been in that situation before: extremely close quarters, shotgun, armed hostiles. I also do not advocate this method because I've been in the same situation with a handgun and with a carbine. Handgun and carbine are just so much easier. Anybody with enough dumb luck can survive a fight. "Surviving" can just as easily mean living the rest of your life as a quadraplegic or with a colostomy bag. I want to do more than survive; I want to win. Winning means dominating, and dominating means taking control of the fight and staying in control until the threat is neutralised, and that means staying in the fight from beginning to end.

With my 1911 or M4, I press a button, then it's tap-rack-bang and I'm back in the fight. With the shotgun (especially a pump), I either continually and repeatedly divert my support hand to the task of feeding the machine every couple of rounds, or I shoot until dry and, effectively, turn it into a single-shot firearm.

Diesel in interested in a pump. Everybody is interested in a pump. Everybody likes the idea of racking that slide in the dark of night and scaring a perp so bad that he leaves a shit-trail behind as he flees. Not to say that that's Diesel's motivation for a pump, but it is very common. If somebody is dead set on getting a shotgun for use as a weapon, I recommend an auto. Most people will not seek out the kind of training that will teach them to effectively and safely manipulate a shotgun under the stress of somebody shooting back at them. That training is expencive, intense, and time consuming. People want shotguns because they think they're a simple solution to a very complex problem. On any tactical team that I've ever seen that's worth it's salt, the shotgunners are always the guys with the most and best training, and the most years of experience. Short-stroking while clearing a room is usually fatal. Personally, I have never seen it not be.

Shotguns are loud. Yeah, all guns are loud if they don't have suppressors. I have a close, personal friend who retired from F.B.I. S.W.A.T. after thirty-four years. In addition to his regular pension, he gets full disability because he gets the privilege of wearing two hearing aids the size of my middle fingers, and you still have to shout at him for him to hear you. He fired one round from an 870 at a suspect inside of a sealed attic without hearing protection, and came out bleeding from both ears. I've discharged shotguns inside of a sealed, twelve-by-12 room and from within a motorvehicle with the windows rolled up, with Peltors on, and I still found it much more uncomfortable than with a 1911 or any 5.56 NATO carbine.

The man of the house usually buys a shotgun for home-defence. He buys the shotgun because, in my opinion, he has no idea what he's doing and because the salesman knows a sucker when he sees one. I see this a lot. He buys the shotgun believing that it's so simple that his old lady will easily be able to use it if he's not around. They both believe that her racking the slide and yelling, "I've got a twelve gauge!" will be enough to deter almost any intruder. They believe that, if it isn't, a chick who weighs a buck-thirty and who has gone to the range maybe once will be able to accurately engage multiple hostiles, probably armed, as they flood through the bedroom door, and that she will be able to retain and reload that weapon under stress. They also, very often, believe that all she has to do is point and shoot.

I was on a scene, once, where a soccer-mom, in her zeal, fired one round from a 20-ga. at a B&E suspect in her livingroom at around 3:00 a.m. Grazing shot on the side of his torso. Here's the funny part: he was her next-door neighbour, and he was on his way home, stumble-down-drunk, and ended up in the wrong house completely by accident. He coldn't figure out why his keys wouldn't work in the door, so he climbed through a first-floor window. He realised that he was in the wrong house and was going back to the window when she popped him. Here's the unfunny part: her kid was sitting on the stairs when mommy fired from the opposite side of the room, and two of the pellets that ended up as fliers flew right into the kid's head and neck. As far as I know, she's still on life-support. It doesn't take much to **** up a child.

If somebody is going to get a shotgun for use in self-defence, get the best instruction out there, and train until they can't get it wrong.

If somebody is going to get a shotgun, also make damn sure that he/she is either the only person that touches that shotgun and ammunition, or that everybody who touches that shotgun and ammunition knows what they're doing. Once upon a time, I had a home-defence shotgun. While I was away, my then-significant other loaned it to her brother-in-law so he and his idiot buddies could go skeet shooting. After wasting all of my buckshot, they did me the favour of picking up a few boxes of shells on the way home. At their way of saying "thanks", they even loaded it for me. Great guys Has anybody here ever put 3" Magnums in a 2.75" gun? I never knew that the gun had been out of the house.

About a month later, I've got someone in my house who doesn't belong there, and he's armed. Out comes the 870...chambered for 2.75"...loaded with 3" Mags. How's that for pucker-factor? People who say a man should never, ever hit a woman are retarded.

Here is what I know:

I can suffer a broken clavicle and several broken ribs on my strong side, or a broken gun hand, switch my handgun to my weak side, reload weak-handed, and return fire weak-handed without too much trouble. I can do it with an auto-pistol or a revolver. I can do pretty much the same thing with a shorty AR or an AUG; it only takes me a second or so longer. Damned if I can figure out how to do it with a shotgun that doesn't take me out of the fight long enough to let a hostile kill me.

I can have my weak-side shoulder or elbow dislocated and still dump a full mag out of my Para PXT or a shorty AR at hostiles inside of a typical, single-family dwelling.

I can engage multiple hostiles with accurate, semi-automatic fire, one-handed, with a pistol while controlling a principle with my other hand enough to keep them out of the line of fire and shove them up the stairs to a safe zone or through a parking lot to a waiting vehicle. Not only can I do it one-handed, but I can do it with either hand and walking backwards.

If you can figure out how to do all of that stuff with a pump-action shotgun...man, I'd like to hear it.

The point that I'm trying to make is that there are a lot of variables in a violent encounter; things that most people never even thought could happen. If you have a wife, girlfriend, child, or favourite dog that happens to be in the room with you when the shooting starts, you might have to physically restrain them because they're panicking, and you might have to keep doing it as you shove them from room to room in your own house. You might have to grab somebody by their waistband, throw them on your hip becuase they just got shot, and zig-zag both your asses to cover while returning fire. If they're on the chunky side, you might be dragging them. Just because you have two good arms right now does not mean that you will once the lead starts flying or the ethnic minorities kick in your front door and flood your living room.

The shotgun's role isn't to keep someone out of your bedroom and away from your family; that's what deadbolts and solid-core doors are for. If someone wants to get into your bedroom badly enough, they're coming in. The shotgun's role is the same as any other firearm's: to put holes in something that's alive and make it dead. I'm not saying that it has no use as a combat weapon; I'm saying that it is a niche weapon, and as long as a person understands the shotguns attributes and limitations, trains with it, and is realistic about its capabilities and how they, personally, can employ it safely and effectively, it's a great tool. It's not, however, the tool that I would choose to take to a gunfight if that was to be my only gun, and it's not the tool I'd like to have at arm's reach when somebody kicks my front door in while I'm watching Ghost Whisperer and eating a microwaved burrito.

The Marines and the Navy are still using the Mossberg; the Army has adopted the Benelli. IMO, it was a needless change.

The shotgun is a great weapon for a pointman as long as he has a carbine to transition to after the tube is empty. It's great for blowing locks and hinges off of doors, as long as the breacher doesn't have to be the first man flooding the room with it. It's great for crowd control as a psychological deterrent; it's great for riot control because of the variety of less-lethal options that it provides, while maintaining the capability of a quick, lethal responce, should the need arise. It's great for sending a slug through an engine to disable a vehicle.

It's not so great for the home-defender who will require an immediate, lethal responce to violent aggression; the pistol is the solution to that problem. At ranges and under circumstances that make the pistol impractical, a lightweight, semi-auto carbine fed from a detachable, box magazine is next, most practical option. An M4 with a good optic will make the shooter effective from muzzle to a few hundred yards. More rounds available to put into more targets. Faster recovery from shot to shot. Faster reloading. Possible to manipulate at a practical level with one hand. Easier to use from unconventional or unstable firing positions. Capability of delivering precision fire should the need arise and the opportunity present itself.

I'll stick with the handgun as my E.D.C. and a carbine of some sort as my go-to, thanks.

Your rebuttal, sir?:D

[tracker]

This an article I found on conceled carry fourm I am in the shotgun is best for home defence corner.

Shotguns

Over time, I have come to the conclusion that a shotgun is the quintessential home defense weapon. First, shotguns are extremely versatile. There is a wide variety of ammo available, from bird shot, to buck shot, to slugs. Ammo choices can be tailored for use inside a home, where overpenetration of walls can be an issue, or for much longer ranges. Shotguns can throw a brutally effective shot pattern at ten feet, or can be deadly accurate with slugs at 100 yards or more. Other types of specialty loads can fit most every need in between those ranges. New loads are even available that greatly reduce felt recoil, even with serious defensive loads.
The right shotgun is also very reliable. Pump shotguns in particular have a very simple manual of arms, are easy to operate, and are not prone to failure, even with minimal maintenance and lack of regular cleaning (not recommended, but it happens).

Pump action shotguns are quite inexpensive, and are readily available. The classic pump shotgun is the Remington 870 series, either in the Wingmaster configuration, or the cheaper Express model. I often see police trade-in 870s for sale at gun shows for $200 or less. They usually have scratches and cosmetic issues, but rarely show any serious wear. Even a new 870 can be had for under $300 in many configurations. For home defense I would recommend an 18 or 20 inch barrel, for ease of handling in tight spaces. While the common bead front sight will do, you may want to consider holding out for, or upgrading to, a barrel with actual rifle sights. Eighteen inch replacement barrels with rifle sights are available from several sources, and most shotgun barrels are easily interchangeable by the user. Many other accessories can be added, like replacement stocks, extended (high-capacity) magazine tubes, and more. For a weapon mounted light, I recommend the SureFire lights that replace the forend stock and are easily activated with the support hand. You may also want to consider adding the proper hardware for mounting a sling, which can be very useful if you have to transition to a handgun or otherwise free up your hands.

[bug_out]

My father retired after thirty-two years in S.F.; 15 as an operator. He co-owns a company that provides unique training and security solutions to qualified entities. The majority of the instructor cadre are former Tier 1. I trained there. I've worked for them on occasion.




I was with Sandline before the restructuring, and I'm an I.B.A. alum.

I have also been a reserve P.O., and a member of the instructor cadre for a municipal P.D. and a S.D. here in Southwest FL.



Yep.



Diesel's question was fairly specific; at least, I interpreted it as being specific. The way I read it was, "What's the best tactical configuration for a shotgun, because I'm going to get one and use it as my go-to for defending myself inside of my home." If that's not the way the question was intended, then I apologise for my misinterpretation.

I'm not saying that the shotgun doesn't have a place in the armory or telling Diesel, or anybody else, not to get one; I'm saying that it isn't the best choice for home defence and, just because military and police tactical teams use them for certain things, doesn't make them the heat for everything and everybody. A person has to know, in advance, how the shotgun is best employed, and be aware of its mechanical limitations and attributes.

People who want a gun--especially a first gun (not saying this is Diesel's first gun. I don't know; I haven't read enough on this forum to find that information; I'm just speaking generally-to defend themselves at home, usually want a shotgun because they think it's the be-all, end-all. Worse, because their buddy who is a cop or used to be a cop or who was neighbours with a cop or something like that said to get one. Never mind that the buddy has probably never used a shotgun in a gunfight, much less used it at oh-dark-thirty in his own livingroom while trying to get his kid or his significant other's kid back up the stairs to a safe zone.

When we talk about "home defence" what we're really talking about is the use of lethal force inside of the home after somebody has gotten the drop on us. Standing on the front porch after a natural disaster, carrying a scary looking boomstick is not "defence"; it is "deterrent". I'm just using that as an illustration, so don't anybody get upset that I'm stereotyping them, please. What I'm saying is that, if you are engaged in self-defence, then violence is imminent or is already occurring. If you are engaged in home-defence, then that same shit is happening inside of your own house.

Where do most normal people keep a shotgun inside of their homes? They sure don't walk around with it slung across their backs. It's in a corner, the gun cabinet, the back of the closet, under the bed, or someplace not immediately accessible when the defender is in the kitchen or doing the laundry or playing in the garden with the rugrats. Defence means the shit is going down right here, right now. No en garde. No pause button. No Mulligans. If a person wants to stay alive, said person needs to be practical; that means they have to be strapped all the time. Who carries a shotgun while they're making a midnight snack?

The shotgun has meager capacity and it is slow to reload. I don't think I've ever seen a twelve-gauge with the minimum, legal barrel length of 18-inches come from the factory with more than an 8-round capacity. there are some who will argue that, if they need more than 8 shots to finish a fight then they're doing something wrong and deserve to get shot. I've actually had people say that to me. No shit. Idiots. They're usually Garand nuthuggers or cowboy action shooters. I'd like to hear what they have to say after the've been in a real fight. Oh, wait...that's right...

The reality is that the defender will probably have to reload. He/she will have to reload because of multiple hostiles; he/she will have to reload because of multiple misses; he/she will have to reload because the only way to guarantee instant incapacitation is a C.N.S. disruption and even the best of us aren't always that lucky. That's the way life is. The defender does not know that one or two shots will neutralise the threat, and shouldn't ever count on that happening. Shoot to neutralise, period. If that means dumping a full mag into a hostile at contact range, so be it.

The shotgun is slow to reload. It's even slower in to reload in a gunfight. It is slower still when the gunfight is in extremely close quarters. If you don't believe me, get a friend, a shotgun, and one of those dry-fire shells. Go to opposite corners of the biggest room in your house, one of you with the shotgun playing the good guy; the other playing the bad guy. Good guy: take aim and drop the hammer on the empty chamber. Bad guy: start charging and throwing furnishings like your life depends on it as soon as you hear the "click", while the good guy tries to reload. Let me know how that works out for you.

Some people will advocate the shoot two, load 2 method of keeping the shotgun in the fight. It's great in theory and works fine if the shooter has cover or concealment, or a wing man, is well trained, and isn't inside of a typical room in a residential building with him. I do not advocate this method because I've been in that situation before: extremely close quarters, shotgun, armed hostiles. I also do not advocate this method because I've been in the same situation with a handgun and with a carbine. Handgun and carbine are just so much easier. Anybody with enough dumb luck can survive a fight. "Surviving" can just as easily mean living the rest of your life as a quadraplegic or with a colostomy bag. I want to do more than survive; I want to win. Winning means dominating, and dominating means taking control of the fight and staying in control until the threat is neutralised, and that means staying in the fight from beginning to end.

With my 1911 or M4, I press a button, then it's tap-rack-bang and I'm back in the fight. With the shotgun (especially a pump), I either continually and repeatedly divert my support hand to the task of feeding the machine every couple of rounds, or I shoot until dry and, effectively, turn it into a single-shot firearm.

Diesel in interested in a pump. Everybody is interested in a pump. Everybody likes the idea of racking that slide in the dark of night and scaring a perp so bad that he leaves a shit-trail behind as he flees. Not to say that that's Diesel's motivation for a pump, but it is very common. If somebody is dead set on getting a shotgun for use as a weapon, I recommend an auto. Most people will not seek out the kind of training that will teach them to effectively and safely manipulate a shotgun under the stress of somebody shooting back at them. That training is expencive, intense, and time consuming. People want shotguns because they think they're a simple solution to a very complex problem. On any tactical team that I've ever seen that's worth it's salt, the shotgunners are always the guys with the most and best training, and the most years of experience. Short-stroking while clearing a room is usually fatal. Personally, I have never seen it not be.

Shotguns are loud. Yeah, all guns are loud if they don't have suppressors. I have a close, personal friend who retired from F.B.I. S.W.A.T. after thirty-four years. In addition to his regular pension, he gets full disability because he gets the privilege of wearing two hearing aids the size of my middle fingers, and you still have to shout at him for him to hear you. He fired one round from an 870 at a suspect inside of a sealed attic without hearing protection, and came out bleeding from both ears. I've discharged shotguns inside of a sealed, twelve-by-12 room and from within a motorvehicle with the windows rolled up, with Peltors on, and I still found it much more uncomfortable than with a 1911 or any 5.56 NATO carbine.

The man of the house usually buys a shotgun for home-defence. He buys the shotgun because, in my opinion, he has no idea what he's doing and because the salesman knows a sucker when he sees one. I see this a lot. He buys the shotgun believing that it's so simple that his old lady will easily be able to use it if he's not around. They both believe that her racking the slide and yelling, "I've got a twelve gauge!" will be enough to deter almost any intruder. They believe that, if it isn't, a chick who weighs a buck-thirty and who has gone to the range maybe once will be able to accurately engage multiple hostiles, probably armed, as they flood through the bedroom door, and that she will be able to retain and reload that weapon under stress. They also, very often, believe that all she has to do is point and shoot.

I was on a scene, once, where a soccer-mom, in her zeal, fired one round from a 20-ga. at a B&E suspect in her livingroom at around 3:00 a.m. Grazing shot on the side of his torso. Here's the funny part: he was her next-door neighbour, and he was on his way home, stumble-down-drunk, and ended up in the wrong house completely by accident. He coldn't figure out why his keys wouldn't work in the door, so he climbed through a first-floor window. He realised that he was in the wrong house and was going back to the window when she popped him. Here's the unfunny part: her kid was sitting on the stairs when mommy fired from the opposite side of the room, and two of the pellets that ended up as fliers flew right into the kid's head and neck. As far as I know, she's still on life-support. It doesn't take much to **** up a child.

If somebody is going to get a shotgun for use in self-defence, get the best instruction out there, and train until they can't get it wrong.

If somebody is going to get a shotgun, also make damn sure that he/she is either the only person that touches that shotgun and ammunition, or that everybody who touches that shotgun and ammunition knows what they're doing. Once upon a time, I had a home-defence shotgun. While I was away, my then-significant other loaned it to her brother-in-law so he and his idiot buddies could go skeet shooting. After wasting all of my buckshot, they did me the favour of picking up a few boxes of shells on the way home. At their way of saying "thanks", they even loaded it for me. Great guys Has anybody here ever put 3" Magnums in a 2.75" gun? I never knew that the gun had been out of the house.

About a month later, I've got someone in my house who doesn't belong there, and he's armed. Out comes the 870...chambered for 2.75"...loaded with 3" Mags. How's that for pucker-factor? People who say a man should never, ever hit a woman are retarded.

Here is what I know:

I can suffer a broken clavicle and several broken ribs on my strong side, or a broken gun hand, switch my handgun to my weak side, reload weak-handed, and return fire weak-handed without too much trouble. I can do it with an auto-pistol or a revolver. I can do pretty much the same thing with a shorty AR or an AUG; it only takes me a second or so longer. Damned if I can figure out how to do it with a shotgun that doesn't take me out of the fight long enough to let a hostile kill me.

I can have my weak-side shoulder or elbow dislocated and still dump a full mag out of my Para PXT or a shorty AR at hostiles inside of a typical, single-family dwelling.

I can engage multiple hostiles with accurate, semi-automatic fire, one-handed, with a pistol while controlling a principle with my other hand enough to keep them out of the line of fire and shove them up the stairs to a safe zone or through a parking lot to a waiting vehicle. Not only can I do it one-handed, but I can do it with either hand and walking backwards.

If you can figure out how to do all of that stuff with a pump-action shotgun...man, I'd like to hear it.

The point that I'm trying to make is that there are a lot of variables in a violent encounter; things that most people never even thought could happen. If you have a wife, girlfriend, child, or favourite dog that happens to be in the room with you when the shooting starts, you might have to physically restrain them because they're panicking, and you might have to keep doing it as you shove them from room to room in your own house. You might have to grab somebody by their waistband, throw them on your hip becuase they just got shot, and zig-zag both your asses to cover while returning fire. If they're on the chunky side, you might be dragging them. Just because you have two good arms right now does not mean that you will once the lead starts flying or the ethnic minorities kick in your front door and flood your living room.

The shotgun's role isn't to keep someone out of your bedroom and away from your family; that's what deadbolts and solid-core doors are for. If someone wants to get into your bedroom badly enough, they're coming in. The shotgun's role is the same as any other firearm's: to put holes in something that's alive and make it dead. I'm not saying that it has no use as a combat weapon; I'm saying that it is a niche weapon, and as long as a person understands the shotguns attributes and limitations, trains with it, and is realistic about its capabilities and how they, personally, can employ it safely and effectively, it's a great tool. It's not, however, the tool that I would choose to take to a gunfight if that was to be my only gun, and it's not the tool I'd like to have at arm's reach when somebody kicks my front door in while I'm watching Ghost Whisperer and eating a microwaved burrito.

The Marines and the Navy are still using the Mossberg; the Army has adopted the Benelli. IMO, it was a needless change.

The shotgun is a great weapon for a pointman as long as he has a carbine to transition to after the tube is empty. It's great for blowing locks and hinges off of doors, as long as the breacher doesn't have to be the first man flooding the room with it. It's great for crowd control as a psychological deterrent; it's great for riot control because of the variety of less-lethal options that it provides, while maintaining the capability of a quick, lethal responce, should the need arise. It's great for sending a slug through an engine to disable a vehicle.

It's not so great for the home-defender who will require an immediate, lethal responce to violent aggression; the pistol is the solution to that problem. At ranges and under circumstances that make the pistol impractical, a lightweight, semi-auto carbine fed from a detachable, box magazine is next, most practical option. An M4 with a good optic will make the shooter effective from muzzle to a few hundred yards. More rounds available to put into more targets. Faster recovery from shot to shot. Faster reloading. Possible to manipulate at a practical level with one hand. Easier to use from unconventional or unstable firing positions. Capability of delivering precision fire should the need arise and the opportunity present itself.

I'll stick with the handgun as my E.D.C. and a carbine of some sort as my go-to, thanks.

Your rebuttal, sir?:D

I simply won't respond to most of this. Back on topic.

Diesel asked for a home defense option. A gauge is a viable and intelligent option.The best? People have argued this for years. I personally don't think it's the best but I definitely wouldn't pass one up on the way to something else in an OH SHIT situation. It's become cliche lately to jump on the gauge bashing band wagon. What has transpired is, a few peoples opinions on the proper deployment of a tool, and the language they used, became blown out of proportion thus creating a deluge of misinformation regarding it. I see this often. The responses are all canned, beige, and ill informed/exaggerated. If the aim was changed from "shotgun's are useless" to "shotguns are ill suited for ______ purposes" then I wouldn't have such an issue, because this would be truth.... not typical internet waywardness. I'll reiterate my point more colorfully. A shovel is a terrific tool but I won't be changing a tire with one. To say all shovels are useless for all purposes is.... well... useless.

Speaking in absolutes and making blanket statements about anything automatically subtract credence from content. We are all guilty of it at times, but I urge, if nowhere else BUT this forum being that correct information could be vital to survival, we make sure that our information is correct and/or clarify when something is simply opinion.

-bug_out

[Mick]

Whatever. :rolleyes:

[Rustyshakelford]

Shotgun Opinions

Now I own a few. I generally feel that a good shotgun in 12 bore is pretty darn versatile. None of mine are tricked out with fancy side saddle thing a ma jiggers, the fancy flashlight mounting doo-hicky, or the teloscoping stock with lazer sites. My are all pump actions in 12, 20 or 410 and have a 24-28 inch barrels. You can load them with slugs for shooting large game, buck shot for 2 legged predators, or #7 shot for a tasty dinner of squab or doves. However, I would agree with Mick, in that they are not ideal for any sort of combat situation. I would prefer my FN/FAL for that, but hopefully will never have to find out.