Springfield XD .45

[Diesel]

What do you guys think of the Springfield XD .45 I'm thinking of picking one up, it's gotten VERY good reviews

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What do you guys think of the Springfield XD .45 I'm thinking of picking one up, it's gotten VERY good reviews

THE best polymer hand gun on the market period. Same torture tests and ratings as the glocks so you know its going to go bang every time you pull the trigger. Also, worthy of note. The XD was made AROUND a hand. The glock has that forward "cant" grip that causes the nose of the weapon to be pointed slightly down with a natural point of aim. This is a MAJOR issue under stress. The XD points at the target in line with your forearms and hand. Really can't describe any better than it was definitely made for human hands. Almost like an extension. Great trigger as well. The new ones have a flip safety added along with the grip and trigger safety already on the weapon. You will have to decide if thats what you want...Personally... Under stress...... It would get in the way unless you trained with a "draw and flip" drill. You will love it. Have 2. Full size and sub compact. Make sure you are getting the ACP and not the GAP. Availability of ammo is crucial in the SHTF scenarios.

[Diesel]

I actually had that angle deal explained to me by an ex marine. He said the way the XD is designed it actually places your hand in such an angle that you almost always return on target as opposed to the faulty angle design of the glock

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I actually had that angle deal explained to me by an ex marine. He said the way the XD is designed it actually places your hand in such an angle that you almost always return on target as opposed to the faulty angle design of the glock

Exactly. The glock enhances trigger snatch under stress cause rounds to go low and right for right handed shooters due to the grip. You almost have to put counter pressure in the heal of your dominant hand to compensate for it. These are my findings anyway. The XD aligns perfectly with your natural point of aim. I can point shoot at distance better than using sights on the glock. Thats empirical evidence for me. I own a glock as well before someone calls me a hater. :p

[Muckraker69]

Well, look at that. My first visit to this forum and I already get some interesting info on a new gun. I've been looking to get a .45 and this sounds like a good choice. ;)

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Well, look at that. My first visit to this forum and I already get some interesting info on a new gun. I've been looking to get a .45 and this sounds like a good choice. ;)

If you are looking for a single action 1911 style .45 look at the Springfield armory operator, and of the kimber line, or if your looking for quality on the cheap look at the Taurus 1911's. As far as high capacity polymer handguns are concerned the XD .45 is the real deal.

[MrWizard]

I have a slight opinion on this, but before I share it, I'll give you a little of my background. In the 1990's I was seriously into competition pistol shooting. IPSC/USPSA to be precise. When I "retired" (having kids does this for you) I was ranked Grand Master in Open Class and A in limited Class. I never won anything big, I never ran with the big dogs of the industry (unless you include being room mates with Voit at a championship match) For me it was something I wanted to be good at, was really close, but never enough to run with the guys that do it for a living. I had a real job and even then some family responsibilities

During this time I used to practice 4 times a week and go to at least one match a week. I loaded my own ammo (still do) and currently have 2 dillon 1050s (9x25 and 9mm) and 1 650 (5.56mm) on the bench. I shot 45ACP in limited class and .38 super at first and later 9x25 (the SV variant not the Dillon variation which came along later) in open class. I carry a 9mm glock model 29 or a H&K P7M13 today and I still practice at least 2 times a month (generally running between 200-300 rounds of ammo at a practice session)

So now you know I am a serious gun nut (among many other faults)

Here's my opinion(s):

For a basic hand-held weapon, it simply doesn't matter what gun you get as long as it fits good, can be carried easily and feels good in your hand when it goes bang. Having sights that you can see in limited lighting is probably the best single feature to look for outside of "fit". Look for one with Trijicon sights. You need to practice over and over until your muscles remember how to return your sight picture. No amount of hand-grip changes, knurlling or rests is going to make up for many hours of practice to get your body to remember how to do it without you having to think about it. This is where fit matters. If it doesn't fit, prepare a lot of advil and band aids

The second feature you need? Lessons. I know it sounds silly, but hear me out for a moment. I went for 5 years before my ego let me consider going to someone for lessons, even though I never could seem to break through to the higher classes. Thats when I started blowing money on equipment thinking that was the answer. I paid Virgil Tripp to build me 2 identical 9x25s with as many light unobtainium parts which were in vogue at the time. It didn't help as much as this .... I ended up at Jerry Barnharts school and now I consider those prior 5 years wasted time as I learned so much that my father, uncle sam and others never taught me. Those few days taught me the exercises to improve but more importantly that there were ways to do things I just simply had not considered before.

After learning this lesson, over the next few years I took several classes from various places, from basic skills to firefight tactics. I still practice the exercises I learned from them today during my practice sessions. This is the kind of stuff one needs to know if things turn bad. Yeah, you may not be able to run the kind of ammo in a practice session I can, nor is everyone blessed with a pistol club like we have here (were we have open range areas and tactical bays.) But heck you can practice basic draw, fire and sight techniques with a properly weighted air-soft gun. I do that at times too, and I can tell you without a doubt, that the neighbors cat really will never be the same.

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I have a slight opinion on this, but before I share it, I'll give you a little of my background. In the 1990's I was seriously into competition pistol shooting. IPSC/USPSA to be precise. When I "retired" (having kids does this for you) I was ranked Grand Master in Open Class and A in limited Class. I never won anything big, I never ran with the big dogs of the industry (unless you include being room mates with Voit at a championship match) For me it was something I wanted to be good at, was really close, but never enough to run with the guys that do it for a living. I had a real job and even then some family responsibilities

During this time I used to practice 4 times a week and go to at least one match a week. I loaded my own ammo (still do) and currently have 2 dillon 1050s (9x25 and 9mm) and 1 650 (5.56mm) on the bench. I shot 45ACP in limited class and .38 super at first and later 9x25 (the SV variant not the Dillon variation which came along later) in open class. I carry a 9mm glock model 29 or a H&K P7M13 today and I still practice at least 2 times a month (generally running between 200-300 rounds of ammo at a practice session)

So now you know I am a serious gun nut (among many other faults)

Here's my opinion(s):

For a basic hand-held weapon, it simply doesn't matter what gun you get as long as it fits good, can be carried easily and feels good in your hand when it goes bang. Having sights that you can see in limited lighting is probably the best single feature to look for outside of "fit". Look for one with Trijicon sights. You need to practice over and over until your muscles remember how to return your sight picture. No amount of hand-grip changes, knurlling or rests is going to make up for many hours of practice to get your body to remember how to do it without you having to think about it. This is where fit matters. If it doesn't fit, prepare a lot of advil and band aids

The second feature you need? Lessons. I know it sounds silly, but hear me out for a moment. I went for 5 years before my ego let me consider going to someone for lessons, even though I never could seem to break through to the higher classes. Thats when I started blowing money on equipment thinking that was the answer. I paid Virgil Tripp to build me 2 identical 9x25s with as many light unobtainium parts which were in vogue at the time. It didn't help as much as this .... I ended up at Jerry Barnharts school and now I consider those prior 5 years wasted time as I learned so much that my father, uncle sam and others never taught me. Those few days taught me the exercises to improve but more importantly that there were ways to do things I just simply had not considered before.

After learning this lesson, over the next few years I took several classes from various places, from basic skills to firefight tactics. I still practice the exercises I learned from them today during my practice sessions. This is the kind of stuff one needs to know if things turn bad. Yeah, you may not be able to run the kind of ammo in a practice session I can, nor is everyone blessed with a pistol club like we have here (were we have open range areas and tactical bays.) But heck you can practice basic draw, fire and sight techniques with a properly weighted air-soft gun. I do that at times too, and I can tell you without a doubt, that the neighbors cat really will never be the same.

Agree. No one should discount large amounts proper training and proper practice. (notice I said PROPER) Static line firing only (or at all in my humble opinion) is highly inadequate. Currently, I have to drive almost 2 hours to practice on anything but a static range but the time I spend properly training is better than the convenience of going somewhere close and standing on line for 10 hours. When I worked in L.E., the training was a flat out joke. It made the officers who did no more than required actually MORE dangerous by filling them with a false sense of security about their shooting skills. I would see overweight desk jockeys dust off their "tacticool" pistols, qualify, then boast about how they "still got it". However, they were strangely absent when we stayed after for stress training or shooting on the move. (not only NOT required but NOT even sponsored by our department.. ie they wouldn't supply the ammunition.)

I am CERTAINLY NOT taking ANYTHING away from your skills and/or qualifications as you IPSC/USPSA guys are simply artists with your weapons but... My main gripe with IPSC/USPSA is how far they have strayed from PRACTICAL application from when they were formed. Also the modifications allowed to the weapons in some cases are again simply not "practical" in the real world. However, MANY of the IPSC/USPSA guys are throughly qualified in actual "practical" applications. It's just a trend I have seen developing lately. The older guys are squared away more so then the new young bucks imo. (I'm still considered by most to be a young buck so I'm pointing out my own demographics issues!)

As far as a personal defense, carry, polymer pistol is concerned, in this one mans humble opinion, the XD fits more hands and feels "right" more often in more shooters hands than anything else I've seen currently.

Mr. Wizard you couldn't have hit it more squarely on the head with your training suggestion. There are plenty of options out there. Some are better for certain applications than others. Perhaps you could help me compile a list including pro's and con's of each? My next class I'm taking will be John Hackathorns I think. I heard he's a bit wild but from what I have gleaned (he likes to fire and have his students fire with other students down range) he seems to have the right idea.

[Diesel]

I'm def in awe of your history, training and skills, and hope some day to become half as profficient as you are.

I am blessed to be in NC right now and have every intention of actually completing many of the blackwater pistol courses which I feel will provide some very nice real world scenario training.

Some reviews on the xd i found

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Just recently I’d been given a chance to pick up the NRA’s handgun of the year (A moniker that doesn’t always mean that much, as the 24/7 fiasco proved.) at an unbeatable price. So, I did what any red-blooded firearm collector would do, and I picked it up! I am now the proud owner of a second Springfield XD: The XD-45 Service model.

The unbeatable price was not without a tradeoff. You see, I picked the pistol up used. As you can see from the pictures though, it quickly became apparent to me that the gun had less then 200 rounds through it. Personally, I think that the previous owner picked up the gun, fired it once or twice, and for whatever reason, decided to let go of it. After a range trip, I’m can honest injun say that it was through no fault of the gun’s performance as to how it found it’s way into my hands.

For those of you who aren’t hip on Springfield Armory’s newest plastic pistol, the XD-45 is their latest expansion of the XD line. The XD design was born in Croatia, and Springfield quickly bought it up, changing it’s name from the HS-2000 to Xtreme Duty. In recent years, the XD has been heralded as one of the most reliable, affordable, and best shooting pistols since Gaston Glock blessed us with his marvelous invention. If you’ve been a reader of mine for any amount of time, you also no doubt have seen me champion this excellent pistol; as I’ve already said, this is my second XD, I already own an XD-40. (You can find a review of it elsewhere on the site.)

This specific XD sports a 13+1 magazine capacity, which is actually a round more than found in it’s .40 S&W and .357 SIG brethren. It’s also equipped with a 5.5-7.0 pound single action trigger, and has 3 safeties. (One striker block, e.g. “drop proof”, one beavertail 1911 safety, and a Glock-esque trigger safety.) The service model has a 7.25” overall length, 4” barrel, 1.2” wide frame, and weighs a manageable 30 ounces with a magazine.

Now, many of you are no doubt turned off by the phrase “double stack .45”, automatically having the empirical form of a Para-Ordnance, or Glock 21 jump into your mind as to what exactly a double-stack .45 is. Having groped a Glock 21 on many occasions (I’ve never actually fired one, nor do I own one, I must admit.), and actually owning a Para-Ordnance Tac-Four, I can say this beast is a whole new breed of .45. She’s nearly unwieldy, nor bulky, and, in fact, I can’t even tell the difference between the standard frames, and the .45! (I don’t think the width of the frames were altered any, only the length of the grips.) The XD-45 still retains the 1911 grip angle, thumb grooves, and Glock back and fore strapping that made it’s predecessors so popular, along with it’s overall feel. I can honestly say, it’s the most comfortable .45 (Short of the original Taurus 24/7, but we all know about those…) that I’ve ever felt.

Shooting wise, this USED gun went unclean after I picked it out of hawk to the range and cycled 200 rounds of Fiocchi flawlessly. Anyone who’s fired Fiocchi ammo knows the truth about it, it’s hardly the cleanest burning stuff around. I never even had one hick-up the entire time. The accuracy on this pistol was amazing, as well. The XD’s inherent pointability that Springfield Armory has always been proud to tote was VERY evident all day long, with my best groups of the day averaging 1” at 7 yards, and I was consistently shooting 2-3”s all day. (For the record, I don’t claim to be any sort of marksman. I advocate defensive shooting over target shooting for the practical person, but this pistol even turned a relatively bad shot like me into a Monday morning marksman at the range.) The pistol, despite it’s weight and polymer frame, tamed the .45 ACP round excellently, and I couldn’t have asked for better performance out of a firearm.

As well as the function, and feel, of the firearm, I think I should reiterate something I went into the last time I reviewed an XD. Springfield Armory have really outdone themselves on the single action trigger included stock with the XD. No longer are plastic pistols plagued with tolerable at best triggers, such as the Glock’s, or the 24/7. The XD series has a smooth pull, and clean break that feels like a production level 1911 trigger. I’ve heard that there’s some custom shops you can send your XD to, to have the trigger reworked, and I do plan on having this done to my XD-45 (Not because of any lacking of the trigger, mind you. Merely because EVERY person I’ve read review this procedure has been exceedingly happy with the results, saying it even FURTHER improved the XD.), but anyone who picks up an XD should be very happy with the stock trigger they receive with their gun.

My only real critical observation of the XD series has been the notoriously bad finish found on the earlier 9mm, .40, .357, and .45 GAP models. As I posted about earlier this year, XD announced that the new XD-45ACP line would feature a melonite finish, instead of the half-assed park job it’s smaller caliber brothers and sisters retained. The finish on the new pistols is superb, and I’m exceedingly satisfied with it. Not only do I have more confidence with this new finish, but the entire gun feels smoother, and just… higher quality… than the older firearms did.

My love for the XD line has only grown with this newest addition to my collection. If you’re looking for a something with a little more of a kick to it then a nine, and with more style and better ergonomics then a Glock, go no further then the XD-45ACP. It will fulfill all your dreams.


=================

Springfield Armory's family of XD pistols just keeps growing. The group is based upon a polymer-frame, striker-fired pistol and has been offered in 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, and .45 GAP. Now the .45 ACP is being chambered in the auto pistol.

The XD guns are available in three different barrel lengths: the 3.1-inch barrel is called the Sub-Compact, the 4-inch barrel is the Service Model, and the 5-inch gun is the Tactical Model. Shooters also have a choice of finishes and can opt for the black model, the OD green, or the Bi-tone, which consists of a stainless slide mounted on a black frame.

But, like that rabbit on the commercial, Springfield Armory just keeps on going. The latest addition to the XD family has really gotten my attention. The XD Service Model and Tactical Model are now available in .45 ACP. And, fully loaded, the new XD .45s carry a payload of 14 rounds.
The new .45 ACP XDs come with a polymer holster, magazine holder, and magazine loading tool.

Springfield Armory's design engineers were able to offer this high-capacity, big-bore loading by only slightly enlarging the pistol's grip circumference. I was pleased to see that the comfortable feel of the XD pistol grip has not been significantly changed with the addition of a 14-shot .45 ACP to the group.

I received both the .45 ACP Service and Tactical Models for testing, and both guns had the standard black finish and the other features we have come to appreciate from the Springfield XD. The sights are the popular three-dot combat version, made of steel and dovetailed into the pistol's slide. Barrels are all hammer forged and have an integral feedramp to ensure positive chambering.

Springfield has put a lot of thought into the design of the XD's grip frame, and it shows. The curved backstrap and flat sides seem to fit most hands very well. And the backstraps and frontstraps also have a checkering pressed into the polymer to assist the shooter in maintaining a positive grip. Springfield has also molded a slight depression at the top of the grip that is a perfect spot for the shooting thumb to further enhance a secure shooting grip. This thumb depression, by the way, is found on both sides of the pistol, an indication that Springfield is aware of the needs of their left-handed customers.

SPECS
Manufacturer: Springfield Armory
Model: XD Service Model; XD Tactical Model
Operation: Striker-fired autoloader
Caliber: 45 ACP
Barrel Length: 4 inches (Service Model); 5 inches (Tactical Model)
Overall Length: 7.25 inches (Service Model); 8.1 inches (Tactical Model)
Weight, empty 30 ounces (Service Model); 32 ounces (Tactical model)
Safety: Trigger safety, grip safety
Sights: Three-dot combat sights
Stock: Integral to polymer frame
Magazine Capacity: 13 + 1
Finish: Matte Black
Price: $559 (Service Model); $595 (Tactical Model)

Another ambidextrous feature of the XD pistol is the magazine release button. Located in the pistol's frame just behind the trigger, this release is full-time ambidextrous, which allows shooters, especially military and police, to completely function and fire the XD pistol with whichever hand gets to it first. That's a handy feature when someone has pushed the panic button.

From the beginning, I have been on record commending Springfield Armory for installing a grip safety in the XD pistols. The safety trigger, common to most striker-fired pistols, is a nice touch, but I never have believed that it is sufficient for adequate safety. With a round in the chamber, such a pistol is only safe when it is carried in a holster that is specifically made for it. During defensive encounters, a shooter may have to shove his pistol into his waistband or hip pocket in order to have both hands free to deal with a non-lethal threat. On the standard striker-fired pistol the trigger may become engaged by clothing and discharge the pistol. This is far less likely to happen with the Springfield XD pistol because the grip safety must be depressed and the trigger activated before firing can occur.

All XD pistols have an accessory rail located on the bottom side of the polymer frame just in front of the trigger guard. This handy but unobtrusive feature allows the shooter to install a flashlight, a laser sight, or whatever other accessory he might want to include in his handgunning program.
Sights on the .45 ACP XDs are the three-dot variety. The Sheriff says the grip frame's curved backstrap and flat sides, checkering, and ambidextrous thumb depressions help the shooter maintain a positive grip.

My two XDs in .45 ACP were only slightly heavier than their comparable XDs in other calibers. The 4-inch Service Model weighs 30 ounces, an increase of five ounces over other Service Models. And the Tactical Model, coming in at 32 ounces, has an increase of only one ounce over the other caliber 5-inchers. By the way, the Service Model has an overall length of 7.25 inches, and the Tactical Model is 8.1 inches long.
Springfield's XD Keeps On Growing

The .45 ACP XDs' 25-yard, five-shot group sizes for the factory loads averaged from 2.25 to 3.75 inches.

ACCURATE & RELIABLE
I took the two .45 ACP XDs to the range along with an assortment of popular .45 ACP ammunition. I like Hornady's 230-grain jacketed flatpoint ammo and always try to keep some in stock. And lately I've been shooting a lot of the Magtech 165-grain JHP defensive load. The Black Hills 230-grain JHP load is another favorite that made the range trip with me, as did the 230-grain JHP Winchester-USA loading and the Winchester 230-grain JHP SXT offering.
Throughout the course of Jim's test-firing, the .45 ACP XDs functioned perfectly with all five test loads.

These various loads shot very well in both pistols. Group sizes averaged from 2.25 inches to 3.75 inches, which is about what one can expect from polymer-frame service pistols. More importantly, all of the ammunition functioned reliably. There were no malfunctions or failures to feed during my entire shooting test. This is indicative of Springfield's attention to detail and to the inclusion of the integral feedramp. In any sort of a service or defensive pistol, accuracy is nice but reliability is critical.

My subjective evaluation of the two XDs revealed that the recoil was quite manageable. I think this is due to the amount of thought that was given to the design of the XD pistol grip. The grip shape also allowed me to obtain a very quick sight picture as the grip felt very natural and everything was lined up when the gun came to eye level. And while I did not measure the gap in the rear sight, I found it to be wide enough to allow plenty of light to appear on each side of the front sight. I find that this is a great aid in quick acquisition of the front sight during fast shooting.

Shooting Springfield's .45 ACP XDs
Factory Load Muzzle Velocity (fps) Standard Deviation (fps) Extreme Spread (fps) 25-yard Accuracy (inches)
4-inch Barreled Service Model
Magtech 165-gr. JHP 1009 10 24 3.25
Black Hills 230-gr. JHP 812 15 21 3.50
Hornady 230-gr. FMJ-FP 802 10 18 2.50
Winchester SXT 230-gr. JHP 799 6 14 2.25
Winchester-USA 230-gr. JHP 820 18 27 3.75
5-inch Barreled Tactical Model
Magtech 165-gr. JHP 1081 12 31 3.00
Black Hills 230-gr. JHP 852 6 18 3.75
Hornady 230-gr. FMJ-FP 847 14 22 2.75
Winchester SXT 230-gr. JHP 845 23 52 2.75
Winchester-USA 230-gr. JHP 855 22 34 3.63
NOTES: Accuracy is the average of five five-shot groups fired from a sandbag benchrest at 25 yards. Velocity is the average of 25 rounds measured 15 feet from the guns' muzzles.

Another nice feature with these new XD pistols is that a holster, magazine holder, and loading tool are all included with the guns. All three items are made of injection-molded material and appear to be quite sturdy. The holster is sort of a polymer Yaqui Slide and will fit any XD pistol, regardless of barrel length. The forward edge of the holster has an accessory rail on it so that the accessory light, or sight, can be stored close at hand when not in use. This is a nice touch from Springfield, and I would like to see some of the other companies begin to include holsters and magazine holders with their products.

How the XD Works
by Dick Metcalf
The XD design integrates classic autoloader mechanics with several distinctly unconventional features. The basic operating mechanism employs a familiar Browning-type cam-ramp, tilt-barrel operation with a captive dual-spring recoil guide assembly. The noncockable ignition mechanism is striker-fired and requires a partial rearward motion of the slide (approximately 3/4 inch) to cock the system and ready the trigger. If the gun is dry-fired, or in the event of a misfire, the trigger cannot accomplish a repeat strike until/unless the slide is racked. In external aspect, this system appears to operate (and feel) much like the familiar mechanism of a Glock, as does the hinged "Glock-like" trigger-safety lever that prevents rearward trigger movement unless depressed by the user's trigger finger. However, the actual operating mechanics of the two designs are greatly different.

The XD mechanism completely cocks (preloads) the spring-charged firing pin so that the only function provided by the trigger pull is to release the sear and fire the gun. By contrast, the Glock "Safe Action" only partly preloads the firing mechanism, and the trigger pull physically completes the cocking action as well as releasing the firing pin. The XD is therefore a true "single-action" trigger design because its trigger only performs one function--releasing the firing mechanism. The Glock is a true "double-action" trigger design in that its trigger contributes to the actual cocking of the mechanism as well as releasing it.

To describe the process in detail: After the XD slide travels rearward about 3/4 inch, the spring-loaded sear "captures" a cocking lug on the firing pin, holding the pin compressed fully to the rear against the pressure of the firing pin spring when the slide travels back forward (either after a short manual retraction of the slide or after the slide's full rearward travel in the firing cycle). A pull on the trigger then moves the trigger bar and firing pin safety lever linkages forward, depressing the sear and releasing the firing pin to fire the cartridge. The XD pistol may "feel" like a DAO (double action only) mechanism, but it is not. It acts like a DAO, but it isn't, mechanically. Springfield's official term for the mechanism is Ultra Safety Assurance Action Trigger System--or "USA Action" for short.

Another unique XD design aspect is the grip safety that prevents the gun's trigger from being squeezed unless it is fully depressed. The XD grip safety also freezes the slide. If the grip safety isn't down, you can't pull the trigger, and you can't pull the slide to the rear to load an empty chamber or clear a loaded chamber. You also can't lock the slide back on an empty gun, whether the magazine is in or out. Plus, there is a separate internal firing pin block that is deactivated only when the trigger is pressed all the way rearward to the point of striker release.

At the present time, the XD .45 ACP pistols are only available in black finish with the Service Model retailing for $559 and the Tactical Model going for $595. However, by the end of 2006 Springfield tells us that OD green versions (same prices as black) and Bi-tone ($595 and $626) will be available.

Modern ammunition being what it is, there is much to be said for the 9mm, .40 S&W, and .357 SIG cartridges. And, certainly, the .45 GAP cartridge is beginning to make a name for itself. But I'm sure glad to see the gun companies humor us old geezers by including the .45 ACP in their lineups. In reality, the .45 ACP cartridge is the standard that all other autoloading cartridges are still compared to. That is simply because the .45 ACP works very well and is always an excellent choice for the defensive shooter, soldier, or policeman.

I think that Springfield Armory has really rounded out its family of XD pistols quite nicely with the inclusion of these guns in .45 ACP. The good old .45 ACP cartridge just keeps going. It's as historical as an old 1911 in the hands of Alvin York and as modern as an XD pistol from Springfield Armory.

[MrWizard]

I am CERTAINLY NOT taking ANYTHING away from your skills and/or qualifications as you IPSC/USPSA guys are simply artists with your weapons but... My main gripe with IPSC/USPSA is how far they have strayed from PRACTICAL application from when they were formed. Also the modifications allowed to the weapons in some cases are again simply not "practical" in the real world. However, MANY of the IPSC/USPSA guys are throughly qualified in actual "practical" applications. It's just a trend I have seen developing lately. The older guys are squared away more so then the new young bucks imo. (I'm still considered by most to be a young buck so I'm pointing out my own demographics issues!)

I don't disagree with this at all, practical shooting is a misnomer. However they had to come up with something as "run and gun" just isnt politically correct enough. Nothing in IPSC will teach you about cover at all. Nor will it teach you anything about entry tactics, retreat tactics etc. Nadda. Zlich. Zip.

It *will* teach you how to use your gun under a variety of conditions and stresses. it will further teach you how to reload said gun on the run as well as a whole wealth of other techniques. Minus of course, that cover bit.

My advise in this area will continue to be, find an USPSA/IPSC club, join them for a year or so, learn their skills, use their equipment and then either hang around them occasionally or not, but take some tactics courses too. Just by being around these guys they are likely to know how (or even get you involved) in some of the LE classes being taught or even better private tactics courses that are in the area.

As far as a personal defense, carry, polymer pistol is concerned, in this one mans humble opinion, the XD fits more hands and feels "right" more often in more shooters hands than anything else I've seen currently.

Not going to argue that one. *I* don't like it. But thats me. I didn't like its sight picture one bit. Thats also me. And thats also changeable. Above all else, if it fits for *you* feels good for *you* than go for it, its a fine weapon.

Mr. Wizard you couldn't have hit it more squarely on the head with your training suggestion. There are plenty of options out there. Some are better for certain applications than others. Perhaps you could help me compile a list including pro's and con's of each? My next class I'm taking will be John Hackathorns I think. I heard he's a bit wild but from what I have gleaned (he likes to fire and have his students fire with other students down range) he seems to have the right idea.

I don't have personal experience with Hackathorns class, but I have heard that they can be a bit .. interesting.


I'll pull together a list of my contacts and PM them too you. If I have a personal opinion from experience I'll add a note to that effect.

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I re-read all my previous posts in this thread and realized how much of an arrogant dick it read like... :( I apologize. I certainly do not mean to talk in absolutes concerning all involved. I meant to relay my personal experience with the weapon in question. Not be the "know it all" "that guy" of the gun world. My apologies.

Mr. Wizard. Great replies! I couldn't agree more about getting involved with the ISPC/UPSA groups. They will teach so much more about firearms in general and in use, than most other organizations available. Also, like we both agree, further "tactical" training is necessary for defense applications.

Please do send me that list and we can compare notes and hopefully compile a good list for current and future members.

[5150 H1]

Very good info guys. I haven't found any semi-auto that fits my hand better than the XD guns. I've got one on my wish list. Current rigs include a Glock, Sig, S&W and some smaller caliber Rugers for plinking.

I enjoy guns and shooting a lot. I envy the time, practice, classes and courses some of you did.

So what is my next defense type gun?? A hammerless revolver in .38 caliber. Although I'd love to do the training and spend more time shooting, I just can't do it as much as I'd like. Running a business, raising teenagers, work travel, etc...my life is hectic. And to put it into perspective, I'm not the only one that needs to know how to shoot a weapon. Other potential shooters include my kids and wife. Although it is not "hard" to shoot a XD, Glock, 1911, etc if you don't do it on a consistent basis, things get forgotten. Add to that a potential stressful condition (lets assume a SHTF situation), and add low light conditions. I want some easy to conceal, easy to shoot type weapons. I know a .38 is not a giant killer, but my 14 year old daughter has to be able to shoot it and not be afraid of it. My wife needs to be able to just point and pull the trigger.

One of the advantages of a hammerless revolver, especially the smaller units is the ability to conceal it in chest shirt pockets, the cargo pocket of your shorts, etc. Part of the advantage is the ability to look un-armed in certain conditions. Sometimes you'll need to convey the appearance of absolutely not being armed. My theory is always fly below the radar, but be armed with heat seeking missles. Don't get me wrong, I'd still have a high capacity semi nearby, but the lack of being armed can give you an advantage in certain conditions.

Also, I've never been trained on what to do if I break my right hand or arm. Could I still cock or cycle my semi, especially in a stressful situation?? I don't know. But I do think that I'd be able to squeeze off the revolver if needed.

Does anyone know how long you can leave a magazine loaded before the spring may start to have a higher percentage of failure?? Let's face it, many load their guns and don't touch them for years at a time. Then one day they need the damn thing and you get a jam on the first cycle.

Mr. Wizard mentioned training and cover. What really opened my eyes was having an airsoft tactical gun fight in the house with my kids about 7 years ago. My little daughter was able to ping me over and over in the forhead from upstairs when I thought I was under good cover. If she had a real gun, I wouldn't have had a chance using just furniture and wall corners as cover. I was shocked and re-thought my gun tactics and the lack of real life training I actually had. This isn't the movies... The funny thing is we still find an occasional air soft bb after all these years in the house. Wifey put a stop to the indoor fights once she figured out the vacuum was full of bb's. Then kept finding bb's everywhere and in everything.

Let me know what you guys think.

[bug_out]

Very good info guys. I haven't found any semi-auto that fits my hand better than the XD guns. I've got one on my wish list. Current rigs include a Glock, Sig, S&W and some smaller caliber Rugers for plinking.

I enjoy guns and shooting a lot. I envy the time, practice, classes and courses some of you did.

So what is my next defense type gun?? A hammerless revolver in .38 caliber. Although I'd love to do the training and spend more time shooting, I just can't do it as much as I'd like. Running a business, raising teenagers, work travel, etc...my life is hectic. And to put it into perspective, I'm not the only one that needs to know how to shoot a weapon. Other potential shooters include my kids and wife. Although it is not "hard" to shoot a XD, Glock, 1911, etc if you don't do it on a consistent basis, things get forgotten. Add to that a potential stressful condition (lets assume a SHTF situation), and add low light conditions. I want some easy to conceal, easy to shoot type weapons. I know a .38 is not a giant killer, but my 14 year old daughter has to be able to shoot it and not be afraid of it. My wife needs to be able to just point and pull the trigger.

One of the advantages of a hammerless revolver, especially the smaller units is the ability to conceal it in chest shirt pockets, the cargo pocket of your shorts, etc. Part of the advantage is the ability to look un-armed in certain conditions. Sometimes you'll need to convey the appearance of absolutely not being armed. My theory is always fly below the radar, but be armed with heat seeking missles. Don't get me wrong, I'd still have a high capacity semi nearby, but the lack of being armed can give you an advantage in certain conditions.

Also, I've never been trained on what to do if I break my right hand or arm. Could I still cock or cycle my semi, especially in a stressful situation?? I don't know. But I do think that I'd be able to squeeze off the revolver if needed.

Does anyone know how long you can leave a magazine loaded before the spring may start to have a higher percentage of failure?? Let's face it, many load their guns and don't touch them for years at a time. Then one day they need the damn thing and you get a jam on the first cycle.

Mr. Wizard mentioned training and cover. What really opened my eyes was having an airsoft tactical gun fight in the house with my kids about 7 years ago. My little daughter was able to ping me over and over in the forhead from upstairs when I thought I was under good cover. If she had a real gun, I wouldn't have had a chance using just furniture and wall corners as cover. I was shocked and re-thought my gun tactics and the lack of real life training I actually had. This isn't the movies... The funny thing is we still find an occasional air soft bb after all these years in the house. Wifey put a stop to the indoor fights once she figured out the vacuum was full of bb's. Then kept finding bb's everywhere and in everything.

Let me know what you guys think.

I commend you for wanting to train your family. My wife understands the reality and has trained with me to the point she is good to go. My daughter just turned 1 so we are only working with .22 cal for her............. j/k

Your next defensive type of weapon beyond some good quality common caliber hand guns and you said you had a hi power semi auto rifle, should be a 12 gauge in my opinion.

A comment about training. You stated that its not "hard" to shoot a handgun. While I agree with you in principal; in practice its a whole different story. Anyone can stand on a static line and put holes in paper. Unfortunately survival situations never happen that way. Low light as you mentioned is one mitigating factor, but so is tunnel vision, muzzle flash, sound, fear, shaking, etc. Most LE miss their first 1 to 2 shots in a gun battle. That will mean more when I tell you most LE gun battles happen within 7 yards. (i think thats a recent figure.) You can read about LE officers and soldiers who talk about their violent encounters. They discuss not picking up the sites until they were already through 5 to 7 rounds. There is a lesson there... Learn to point shoot. Now, that is not the end all of training but it is a good tool to have your pocket. John Hackathorn is big on point shooting and thats why I'm taking his class. I feel I'm proficient at tracking my sights through rapid fire but always need to train the other side as well.

Wounded shooting arm: Use your belt, or an edge of table etc, to rack the weapons using the rear sight. It will hold I promise. We did these drills in academy.

Magazine storage: Magazines can be and were meant to be loaded. Load em up and store them. Don't worry about it. They will be good to go.

Cover and concealment: Heres the litmus test. If it stops a bullet its cover, if it doesn't its concealment. Drywall is a concealment. Couch, concealment. Brick wall, cover. etc. Hope that helps.

I encourage you to find time to train. I sure understand a hectic lifestyle but if you make training PART of your lifestyle it finds time for itself. Maybe a family vacation to front sight, or Valhalla instead of the beach or Disney??

Hope this helps.

[5150 H1]

bug_out,

I agree with what you're saying. You mentioned shotguns and long guns. You'd laugh if I told you how many shotguns I own and a major assortment of semi auto, bolt action and lever action rifles from 308's, 5.56's 30-06, 7mm mag, 30-30, etc. The family has been deer and pig hunting for over 40 years. My fascination is tactical shotguns. I've got all the standard Mossbergs, Remingtons, Winchesters and some odd Chinese and Turkish copies of old trench guns. All set up tactical. The only shotguns I'm not going to be able to get are the non California approved units. It sucks to live here if you're into guns.

My main thought pattern with the hammerless revolver is basic simplicity, nearly foolproof, very snag proof and more than adequate within 21 feet as you so correctly stated. Here is what I'm trying to achieve. Imagine a short chubby guy in flip flops, swim trunks and a tank top buying a Slurpee at 7-11.
You would probably not even think of him as a threat. You would probably let your guard down a little and focus on other targets or situations. I want to be that short chubby guy that nobody wants a piece of because I look like I have much less than you do. But the reality is as soon as you discount me, let your guard down, etc....I have a major advantage over you. No matter how much training you have, thinking I'm not armed and not a danger is going to be your downfall.

These scenarios are all based on a crises times, example, after a Katrina event, or the Rodney King riots. When you have bad guys running around without fear of the law, their main targets are those that have something that they want. Once they figure out you have something they want, they a look to see if you are an easy target. In those conditions, looking like you don't have anything worth a damn is good. Having protection in the pocket of your swim trunks, priceless.

But, I'm still going to by an XD pistol, just have to decide on which model I want.

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What model did you decide on 5150 H1?