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  • #61
    Originally posted by Big_Saw View Post
    Kinda stereotypical....almost like saying that all dogs hate cats, etc....easy, Bud...
    Sorry you feel that way but I live here and I don't care if you believe it or not, I have nothing to prove to anyone, I say it the way it is...
    I hope you don't take any of this aggressively.
    There's hypocrites in every religion, society and neighborhood. People are people and don't expect any group or organization to be different.
    In my lumpy chair

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by oly View Post
      Sorry you feel that way but I live here and I don't care if you believe it or not, I have nothing to prove to anyone, I say it the way it is...
      I hope you don't take any of this aggressively.
      There's hypocrites in every religion, society and neighborhood. People are people and don't expect any group or organization to be different.
      Okay, that's fine....and you're welcome to your opinion...but I'm quite sure our membership includes Mormons, as well as some Mormon guests, so you can either abstain from negative general stereotypes, or you can take it up with the Admin.....

      ...Is there something in the water lately? Everyone seems to be a bit crabby toward others....
      "I Have Sworn Upon the Altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." -Thomas Jefferson

      "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves, in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." -Frederic Bastiat

      Comment


      • #63
        LOL Big saw get a grip dude:D
        If you wont to send admin after me then do so but I have to let members know that this is BS...

        Let look at it another way then. People are people, everyone has there good qualities and bad.
        Self Preservation is everyone's #1 priority.
        Mormons will organize and welcome you just like any other good or bad christian will. :eek:
        In my lumpy chair

        Comment


        • #64
          This thread most definitely got off track.
          With all due respect, it was destined to do so from the moment it was called "civil unrest".
          Political correctness is the assertion that you can pick up a turd by the clean end.
          Any 'real' discussion of 'civil unrest' would first have to dispense with the PC BS.

          Civil unrest can come in minor to nationwide form. So what is it?
          Four primary sources of civil unrest:
          1. Racial
          2. Religious
          3. Natural disaster.
          4. Financial/Political collapse.

          3 and 4 are going to look about the same except maybe for 4 in which the power will stay on a few days more until the government entities that are running it fall into disarray. After that, it will be much the same as a natural.

          To me, the idea that you can avoid it's effects by being out in the country side is ludicrous at best. Maybe your not in the direct line of fire, but the oil, gas, food, emergency care, power, etc and the groups that keep them running will be.

          In the event of massive civil unrest (becoming more and more likely with each passing day) There will be no safe haven from it's effects.

          Now that we've dispensed with the mythical utopia of "can't touch me U.S.A.", lets put out a scenario for those in the country side.

          Say your living on a farm and listening to the shortwave that had been protected by a faraday cage. Atlanta and every other big city has fallen into utter chaos as the grid collapses from being hit by a massive solar storm.

          You hear sporadic tales of rioting, killing, raping, burning, looting, and in general enactment of the dark side of human nature. You want to run down to the local choke and puke and discuss with your neighbors, so you hop in your points type driven 4x4 which you have working, and because you know your buds would have done the same already.

          On the highway, you come across reams of cars that had found themselves in various parking garages and other structures that protected enough to enable them to be drivable.

          In passing your fields, you see people out stripping them of any food value. Your corn etc is being stolen by families with children who just didn't prepare and are desperate for food.

          One particular family has 4 young children, two young adults, and all are getting your corn.

          What do you do?

          a. leave them be, knowing your family will suffer in the long run
          b. kill them
          c. force them away at gunpoint taking everything they have, but leaving them alive to come back another day (possibly armed)
          d. take them in to your shelter without really knowing them, but knowing any attempt to help them will ensure your family doesn't have enough food to survive.
          e. kill the idiot parents and take the children to raise
          f. feel sorry for yourself and blow your own brains out so you don't have to deal with it

          What do you do?

          If the answer didn't immediately pop into your head, you are not prepared mentally. No matter where you are at, your screwed if your not mentally prepared.

          Contingency planning is a farce without mental preparation.

          Therefore, the real question is "are you mentally prepared for the situation in "all" ways?
          Last edited by cwi555; 11-21-2009, 08:53 AM. Reason: edited for spelling 11-21-09

          Comment


          • #65
            Best post yet in this thread....
            "I Have Sworn Upon the Altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." -Thomas Jefferson

            "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves, in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." -Frederic Bastiat

            Comment


            • #66
              I'd choose (A), and wouldn't have to think about it at all . I personally could not eat and watch four children go hungry, yeah the parents are probably idiots but I can't punish the kids for that. Old dogs and little children can pretty much get anything they want from me, can't turn my back on either.
              Every Day , Is A Bonus.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by kenno View Post
                Anyone have any plans for avoiding Civil Unrest aka riots?
                I sure hope there is NEVER civil unrest. We do need to remember we are American citizens and humans, if anything, we should try being helpful to one another rather then do something foolish. Now with that said, I also hope the other countries don't do something foolish either! If we have a problem with the way our government is being run, we need to take every available legal step to correct it. Granted, this doesn't always work, but that doesn't mean we need civil unrest either. I'd hate to see that come down the pike!

                Anything is possible, but I still wouldn't want to see it!
                Being unprepared is giving up!

                Comment


                • #68
                  I can wish in one hand and S*** in the other and see which one fills up first.
                  I pray the situation never occurs, but the probability is that it will. There were people who found themselves in that very scenario during Katrina with the exception of the fields of corn. They road the storm out (stupid to begin with) only to find their homes and businesses raided, when they sought shelter, one in particular had roving gangs of thugs looting, raping, and killing. The police found themselves barricaded into their parish HQ by night because the number of thugs roaming the streets. The media never reported the worst of what happened there. However; the reports did eventually leak out. A few minutes research will go a long way to opening your eyes.

                  I am a weld engineer, NDE LIII, Metallurgist by trade. That career has carried me to many countries/cities in the last 25 years. 2 of which degraded into total chaos while I was there. (Indonesia 2004 Tsunami, Pisco, Peru 2007 8.0 earthquake).
                  Those are the two I was present for when it went down.
                  http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0ca_1189953001
                  I've witnessed the aftermath in several more places, but those two in particular, were front and center.

                  Both were natural disasters, both had severe consequences. The bodies of men, women, and children could be partially seen buried in what was left of Pisco, Most of the bodies in Indonesia were thankfully washed away in the area I was in.

                  In all cases, there were what I call two classes of people that emerged. Humans, and carrion. The humans dug in and aided where they could. The carrion raped, robbed, and killed every chance they got (which was many), and in general behaved as animals.

                  After what I've witnessed the last 25 years, those are the only two kinds of people I see. Humans and carrion. The later will be shot on sight when the chaos hits.

                  So Kenno, we are not all "human"
                  "we are American citizens and humans, if anything"
                  The carrion walk among you. Human history is full of examples of this. I strongly advise you learn the difference fast before you find yourself victim to one of them.
                  Last edited by cwi555; 11-21-2009, 12:47 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Lately I've been thinking that the biggest threat we all face wiill be a collecting of weapons then gang violence and civil unrest. I used to worry about EMP and nuclear attack but why would a country attack us with that and risk world condemnation while we are already unravelling rapidly all by ourselves. I can see other countries taking advantage of the situation by helping us along with our self destruction, especially by dumping the dollar and replacing the purchase of oil from dollars to other currancies. Which brings me to ask the question once the military comes to collect your weapons, where will you hide your supplies, weapons, meds, etc... We will all need these things to survive the civil unrest and starvation which will follow. I have two young daughters and I will not be defenseless and allow gangs to threaten them or my family and do the unspeakable to them.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      [Which brings me to ask the question once the military comes to collect your weapons, where will you hide your supplies, weapons, meds, etc... ]

                      Not my words but the author read my mind .... "hide your weapons? When you believe it's time to hide your weapons that is the time to begin using them .... not hiding them". You only get to die once .... make it as short and sweet as you can. You give up your means of defense and you are at the mercy of all those who didn't and there are those who thrive on other folk's misery. Don't become a living victim.

                      O.W.
                      Things are seldom what they seem.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        What he said ^^^^
                        "I Have Sworn Upon the Altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." -Thomas Jefferson

                        "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves, in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." -Frederic Bastiat

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          [So Kenno, we are not all "human"
                          "we are American citizens and humans, if anything"
                          The carrion walk among you. Human history is full of examples of this. I strongly advise you learn the difference fast before you find yourself victim to one of them.[/QUOTE]

                          Who do you think your talking to? Who are you quoting? It's not me, you patronizing wind bag.
                          The road to serfdom is paved with free electric golf carts.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            If you know that military or police is coming around to collect weapons. Are you going to fight then? I don't think I could prevail against that. I'd rather let them take what they're going to, then have a stash to live on so we can live another day. I also still want to be able to defend myself after the thugs come around knowing/ thinking we are unarmed. Historically that has been what has happened. It happened during Katrina. They declare martial law, collect weapons and leave you to fend for yourself unarmed.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              I totally respect your opiniions on this. If it were just my husband and I would go down shooting. But I've a 5 and 7 year old daughter and 18 year old son, surviving for them is important. If people were disappearing instead of just being disarmed it would be different. I can't see them rounding up and shooting everyone though. Big Saw do you have kids? It isn't feasible for us to live on the run living off the land either. I'd rather fly below the radar.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Event Impacts and Probable Responses

                                The following represents a three tier forecasting model of potential “trigger events”. It is known that
                                large scale events often initiate a reaction from a government and its citizens. This forecasting
                                model attempts to generalize responses to these events. The purpose of this forecasting model is to
                                assist in forming plans to deal with potential problems as they occur. As is the case with any
                                forecasting model, predicting human reactions to any scenario is complicated at best. I have made an
                                effort to mold this report to fit our geographic/demographic profile. It is possible that these events (or
                                similar) may progress in step, or go from one extreme to the other. It is also possible that two or more
                                events may trigger at the same time. Please assist in making suggestions that may improve this
                                model.

                                Scenario 1: Economic Recession

                                This is our current threat level. The United States housing market correction (a consequence of United
                                States housing bubble) and subprime mortgage crisis has significantly contributed to a recession. The
                                2008/2009 recession is seeing private consumption fall for the first time in nearly 20 years. This
                                indicates the depth and severity of the current recession. With consumer confidence so low,
                                recovery will take a long time. Consumers in the U.S. have been hard hit by the current recession,
                                with the value of their houses dropping and their pension savings decimated on the stock market.
                                Not only have consumers watched their wealth being eroded – they are now fearing for their jobs as
                                unemployment rises. With developments like these, it would be reasonable for Americans to grow
                                concerned that the recession is bringing a return to the urban crime and violence more common in
                                the '70s and '80s. Locally, we are already seeing an increase in criminal activity as well as the types
                                of crimes associated with either mental illness or depression (family violence ect…) Local gangs are
                                becoming more powerful by way of recruitment during tough times. WNC has a very high
                                concentration of SureƱos who have become emboldened because of their high numbers.

                                Recommendations:

                                1. Fortify in place - Look at the security measures of your home. Make adjustments as
                                needed.

                                2. Gather intelligence – Research and record information on criminal activity in your area.
                                Record geographical data on gang activity and base of operations. Learn how these
                                elements “Tag” their territory. It is becoming more difficult to identify individual gang
                                members as they are changing tactics on clothing and tattoos, but common sense and some
                                profiling techniques can help. If you have law enforcement contacts, they can assist you in
                                identifying areas where criminals and gang members are known to be. Record this
                                information on a map or use tools like Google Earth to document the intelligence.

                                3. Communicate & Network – Continue to communicate, Network and train with your group.
                                Establish plans of action for each threat level and practice these plans of action.
                                Communicate and network with other groups in your area. Share training objectives and
                                plans of action for each threat level. Incorporate some multi-level training with satellite
                                groups. Establish a safe location as a rally point in case of extreme emergency. Incorporate
                                a Challenge & Pass safeguard for the rally point. Distribute this plan to surrounding groups.
                                Networking plans should incorporate more than tactical professionals. Think of these people
                                as support professionals. These people will not be incorporated into each group, but should
                                be considered as part of a support network. Support personnel may include and are not
                                limited to:

                                • Medical professionals
                                • Research
                                • Engineering – Electrical – Structural ect.
                                • Mechanical
                                • Agricultural professionals

                                The subject matter experts should be incorporated into the network by using the same
                                filtering techniques used for group members. Although operational planning objectives do not
                                need to be disseminated to all of the above mentioned individuals, the emergency plan
                                should be disseminated.

                                Scenario 2: Economic Depression

                                Historical facts
                                13 million people became unemployed. In 1932, 34 million people belonged to families with
                                no regular full-time wage earner. Industrial production fell by nearly 45% between the years 1929
                                and 1932. Homebuilding dropped by 80% between the years 1929 and 1932. From the years 1929
                                to 1932, about 5,000 banks went out of business. By 1933, 11,000 of the US' 25,000 banks had
                                failed. In 1933, 25% of all workers and 37% of all nonfarm workers were unemployed. In Cleveland,
                                Ohio, the unemployment rate was 60%; in Toledo, Ohio, 80% over one million families lost their
                                farms between 1930 and 1934. Between 1929 and 1932 the income of the average American family
                                was reduced by 40%. Nine million savings accounts had been wiped out between 1930 and 1933.
                                273,000 families had been evicted from their homes in 1932. There were two million homeless
                                people migrating around the country. Over 60% of Americans were categorized as poor by the
                                federal government in 1933. New York social workers reported that 25% of all schoolchildren were
                                malnourished. In the mining counties of West Virginia, Illinois, Kentucky, and Pennsylvania, the
                                proportion of malnourished children was perhaps as high as 90%. Many people became ill with
                                diseases such as tuberculosis.

                                The difference between public reactions for an Economic Depression in the 30’s as
                                compared to today may be the public response to such duress. Several contributing factors argue
                                for violent reactions by some elements of the public. One is the inability of most people today to
                                cope with and deal with hardships. The standard of living has greatly improved since the 1930’s.

                                The U.S. Army War College in November warned in a monograph titled “Known Unknowns:
                                Unconventional ‘Strategic Shocks’ in Defense Strategy Development” of crash-induced unrest:

                                The military must be prepared, the document warned, for a “violent, strategic dislocation
                                inside the United States,” which could be provoked by “unforeseen economic collapse,”
                                “purposeful domestic resistance,” “pervasive public health emergencies” or “loss of
                                functioning political and legal order.” The “widespread civil violence,” the document said,
                                “would force the defense establishment to reorient priorities in extremis to defend basic
                                domestic order and human security.”
                                “An American government and defense establishment lulled into complacency by a longsecure
                                domestic order would be forced to rapidly divest some or most external security
                                commitments in order to address rapidly expanding human insecurity at home,”.
                                “Under the most extreme circumstances, this might include use of military force against
                                hostile groups inside the United States. Further, DoD [the Department of Defense] would be,
                                by necessity, an essential enabling hub for the continuity of political authority in a multi-state
                                or nationwide civil conflict or disturbance,” .




                                Recommendations:

                                1. Fortify in place - Look at the security measures of your home and neighborhood. Make
                                adjustments as needed. Involve your neighbors in security and planning. Work with local
                                law enforcement as well as DOD assets when possible.

                                2. Meet basic needs – Some basic resources may be strained by the economic situation.
                                Food, Gas, Oil and perhaps water supplies may be short. Have a community based
                                approach to solve these problems. Look for subject matter experts to solve community
                                based problems, such as home based medical care.

                                3. Gather intelligence – Research and record information on criminal activity in your area.
                                Use any previous recorded crime data to enhance security measures for your neighborhood.
                                Watch for signs of increased DOD presence as well as restrictions of movement by
                                government officials. As crime increases, responses to these crimes will be met with the
                                appropriate counter force. Use this information to assist in the modification of the forecasting
                                model and make appropriate changes to that model.

                                4. Communicate & Network – Communications with your group should increase.
                                Communications with satellite groups should increase. Discuss the next threat level and
                                adjust both the forecasting model and your plan of action as needed. Be aware of your
                                group geographic limitations regarding possible restriction of movement. Adjust
                                communications to compensate for restrictions of movement. Use the current threat level as
                                a tool of “education” in your networking process. Draft alternate plans of communication
                                should a catastrophic event compromise current communications. Test these alternate forms
                                of communication on a regular basis.

                                5. Enhance training and planning – Multi level training events with satellite groups should be
                                conducted more frequently. Plan training scenarios on current events. Modify and enhance
                                training objectives as needed. Monitor activity at all planned rally points and adjust locations
                                if needed.

                                Scenario 3: “Black Swan Event”

                                A Black Swan event or occurrence is one that deviates beyond what is normally expected of a
                                situation and that would be extremely difficult to predict. Some analysts agree that the attack on 9-
                                11-2001 was such an event. The DOD refers to these events as “Strategic Shocks”. After 9-11, the
                                DOD looked more closely at forecasting potential Strategic Shocks. Many of the forecasting models
                                included non-military events (Natural disaster, Pandemic ect.) that could initiate a cascade of reactions
                                including civil disruptions within CONUS. Although predicting these events will greatly enhance
                                recommended responses on our part, it is not entirely needed for establishing general guidelines.
                                We must understand that a Black Swan event combined with either of the above scenarios is likely
                                to create greater difficulties. There are two general (possible) outcomes regarding responses of DOD-LEO
                                and one likely response of the civilian population. The DOD-LEO response and outcome will
                                be guided by the level of response of the civilian population. If event predictors indicated by the
                                DOD study of a Black Swan event are correct, civil unrest will likely overwhelm law enforcement
                                officials and the DOD will be forced to assist. There is another possibility of civil difficulties that may
                                even overwhelm the DOD assets. Any Black Swan event, coupled with an already weakened
                                economic state, may create large dislocations of population and civil unrest. A Black Swan event
                                may make populated areas uninhabitable.



                                Recommendations:

                                1. Relocate – Initiate your relocation plan. Move to pre-planned staging areas and gain
                                accountability of personnel and equipment. If possible, pre-stage non-essential items such
                                as tools and hardware for shelter improvement at the final objective. Pre-planned staging
                                areas should be used to gather before movement to the final objective. A movement plan
                                should be detailed and operations order issued. A secondary movement plan should be
                                established that does not include motor vehicles.

                                2. Meet basic needs – Food, Water and Shelter are priority. Enhance each of these needs as
                                time permits. If possible, pre-stage any items that may enhance capabilities in these areas.
                                Establish a long term plan for the provision of food and water. Utilize subject matter experts
                                in this area. Establish a plan for healthcare if possible.

                                3. Meet Security Needs – Establish a security plan. Improve this plan as time permits. If other
                                groups are located in known areas, establish a working relationship if the tactical situation
                                permits such a relationship.

                                4. Communications – Establish and improve a communications plan as time permits.

                                5. Resupply – This is more likely a plan that will needed to be established after a period of
                                adjustment. Many unknown variables will be involved in the process.



                                Sources
                                Strategic Studies Institute US Army War College
                                Known Unknowns: Unconventional "Strategic Shocks" in Defense Strategy Development –Nov 2008
                                NC Crime Control and Public Safety
                                North & South Carolina Gangs
                                Army Times
                                Brigade homeland tours start Oct.1 – Sept 2008
                                Last edited by hminus; 09-07-2010, 10:15 AM.

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