The CORRECT way to deal with the Police

[lady_banjo]

Thanks to ALL of you for this great advice!

[barkingowl]

The last time I "interacted" with a LEO was in Ohio a couple years ago. I was coming home from a friend's memorial service & I was exceeding the speed limit. Luckily I had three rabbits that were going maybe 10 mph faster than I was. I slowed down to about 80mph because I had a feeling that something wasn't quite right & up ahead were three troopers! I was in the left lane & I slowed down to a crawl & pulled over on the median & turned off the engine. I keep my hands on the steering wheel. A long time ago a MA cop was shot when approaching a car & they recommended that motorists keep their hands in plain view. The wheel seems like the common sense place to keep them. Anyhow... The trooper comes over to the window & asks for the license & registration. My wife hands them to me & I give them to him. He returns to his car & my wife & I watch the rabbits going through the same procedure on the shoulder. The trooper returns to the car & explains the ticket & how to fight/pay for it. I look at him & ask him how they caught me. He says that they have an "eye in the sky" that flies up from Dayton for a couple hours every other Sunday. They set up a few miles down the road & wait for the spotter to call out descriptions of the offenders. I complimented him on their operation & reached out, shook his hand & wished him well. When we were back in traffic my wife noticed that we could've been going 150mph & the fine would've been the same.

Most of my encounters with troopers have been pleasant. Local LEOs have been pleasant for the most part as well. When I was growing up there were rumors that some of the local LEOs would take undesireables to the edge of town & give them a good beating before telling them never to return. One LEO in particular stuck in my head because she was the only female officer on the force. THe only interaction that I had with her was her calling me to let me know that my Mom had a heart attack.

I remember one night after my Mom passed away I was at my parents' house & the alarm went off in the middle of the night. My brother & I met in the kitchen along with a couple local LEOs. I was in my underwear & their only comment was asking if we were alright. :D

I've had bad encounters too. But none where I've been pulled from the car & been tasered or beaten. I've been on the rough end of a LEO's bad day & have been fortunate that that was all it was.

[Visinedrops]

There's a guy who works for the same company as me who has been trying to become a cop for, well, at least a year that I know of. I, personally, do not like the guy because of his arrogance and egotism. He, I believe, will become a "bad cop". In his own words, and I quote, "Cops shouldn't be able to pull us over, we're armed guards."

That's just stupid. He was pulled over for speeding, apparently going 8 over in one of our armored trucks. He fought, he lost. Now, the bad part about this is the fact that over the past 6 months since he had been stopped for speeding, 3 other drivers on that same road, in relatively the same vehicle, were pulled over for speeding...by the same cop. They fought, they won.

Good cop, bad cop? A bad cop is the one that gave you a ticket for doing 8 over in a school zone while talking on your cell phone and eating a bagel, but a good cop is the one who shows up at your house at 3 in the morning on a prowling complaint, and you realize it's the same one who gave you a ticket earlier that evening.

[cwconnertx]

Man, this is getting so tiresome. Thanks Rossa for adding a voice of reason to the mix. I hope and pray that I never, ever, have to stop or deal with any of you in a law enforcement situation. There would be absolutely no way that once the contact was over that you would feel it was just and fair all around.
The inflections in my voice would have been wrong, if not that then my tone. Maybe I didn't hold my mouth just quite right. I have a bad habit of pushing my glasses up on my nose with my middle finger, so of course that would be interpreted as flipping you off. Maybe I took too long getting from my car to yours or back from yours to mine. Maybe I was too polite and you didn't feel that I could be an effective enough cop if you ever needed me to come to your house on a prowler call. Maybe your wife was with you and I flirted by saying " good evening ma'am". Maybe you thought I was flirting with you when I said "good evening sir". Possibly my take down lights (thats the ones on top of the car) where too bright on your tinted windows at two in the morning, sorry I didn't mean to think of my own safety there for a moment. Maybe you didn't get the "thank you" card in the mail two days later thanking you for our nice chat and for how polite you were. Of course that should have been followed by the sympathy card for inconveniencing you in the first place. Maybe I forgot the say thank you after you explained to me that you paid my salary and I'm sorry after you asked me if I knew who you were and I couldn't come up with an answer. Since I don't know you personally, and you didn't tell me about the concealed gun, I'm sorry that I mis-intrepreted your intentions and shoved my .45 in your face and yelled "don't move or I WILL blow your head off" when that gun accidentally peeped out from under your coat or seat.
I apologize for not being able to read your mind and that you can't read mine, oh...wait I forgot you can read mine, because all us cops are the same, just like the one you saw on tv hitting that guy for no reason.
I could go on, but the walls have been built and fortified.
There is no reason to discuss the facts, because our minds are made up. Right?
Trust me fellows, you win, when the crap hits the fan, I will look for my own kind.
beebopCOP

When the crap hits the fan, I'm not gonna be too worried about police and prosecutorial misconduct, as Big Saw pointed out, what worries some of us is the amount of power and lack of accountability. That is the system.

I rarely get pulled over. But when you do for something you didn't do, you still can get a ticket that is costly to fight. The prosecutors will move forward with it knowing they can't prove guilt if you fight it, but they know most can't afford to fight. The system is broken.

I'll admit a bias. I see gang activity in my town, yet often see police sitting in the median waiting to stop someone for speeding in an area where the speed limit is really set much too low. I see graffitti, read of burglaries, and just get a little upset that attention is diverted away from this crime to catch speeders. If the police happen across someone violating traffic laws that is one thing, but to devote the time to it bothers me and affects my attitude. But do I believe it is the officers fault, no. Clearly this decision is being made by someone. Again the system is broken.

Now where it is under officers control is the attitude. I have interacted with those with both good and bad attitude. But mostly I try to be nice and make them feel comfortable. Same as everyone else. The problem is the power. If the officers are nice, no problem. Give an officer attitude and you can find yourself with serious legal trouble. Get in an argument with you drycleaner that has a bad attitued, you might lose a shirt. The power difference is what makes people nervous.

I know some people think it is a personal attack, but for me it isn't. I just see too many problems with system. The system puts police in a difficult position, but ultimately people make choices. Slome good, some bad.

Do I think all police are bad, of course not. But I do think it attracts some power hungry egomaniacs. ARe there power hungry egomaniacs in other fields, yes, but they don't have the power of the law behind them.

[Rustyshakelford]

Obviously this post is motivated by the "Police State" thread. I've put it here in "Contingency Planning" because it is a possible contingency everyday that we depart from our homes.

No one can deny that there are bad cops out there. As a matter of fact, they are probably as many bad as there are good, if not more. Let me take a minute or two to explain why this is the case. The badge and the rubber stamp of authority that goes with it is a very powerful thing. More power than most young men and women know how to handle when it is thrust upon them. I personally know many officers that think putting on the badge makes them a man or a woman and they are nothing without it, which is very sad. Of course the reality is that you have to be a mature man or woman before you put the badge on. You have to be 21 years old to be a cop and few people at that age have the maturity to do the job. Most people come into the career with noble intentions. However, with bad mentoring, and too few good role models, they quickly start going to the dark side. Also, many of these officers get disenchanted with the job when the revolving door of the juctice system lets the perp go after the officer worked so hard to get them off the street. I could give many other reason but for the sake of brevity I won't. Also let me make sure that you understand, those are some of the "reasons", NOT JUSTIFICATION. There is NO JUSTIFICATION for a bad cop.

So, the above being said, when you are stopped by an officer you do not know if you have a bad one or a good one. So how are you suppose to respond? In the first place, the officer needed one of two things to stop you; probable cause and/or reasonable suspicion. Examples of probable cause would be a busted tail light, failure to stop as a marked intersection, speeding, etc. Examples of reasonble suspicion would be swirving in traffic or crossing the white or yellow lines, your vehicle matching the description of a vehicle involved in a crime, etc. When you pull your car to the curb cut the engine off and stay in your car. If it is night time, turn on your interior light. Roll down your window and place both hands out the window or on top of the steering wheel. If you have a legal gun in the car, concealed or otherwise, tell the officer immediately. This will put him/her at ease and makes the officer feel that you mean him/her no harm. Remember, you know you and what your intentions are, the officer does not.
When you are stopped do not immediately start digging for your license and registrtation because the officer does not know what you are digging for and it makes him/her more nervous than they already are. Thats right, the officer is nervous and scared unless he is just an idiot. When the officer ask for your paperwork please remember to tell him/her about the gun in the glove box, if that is where you keep it and your registration.
If the officer is rude, continue to be polite and silently note his badge number and/or his vehicle number. If the officer ask for a consent search and you have nothing to hide, you can certainly say no. You can also ask him why he wants to search, remember your vehicle may match the one that was at the bank robbery that morning or the murder the night before. Now we are talking about a bad cop: If you say no to the search and the cop becomes billigerant, right, wrong, or indifferent, it is best to let him search and then report him to his Chief the first chance you get. You do not want this idiot to hurt you while you are trying to defend your rights, it's not worth it.

The other thing that would help to keep in mind is behind that badge is a person. He/she works in a stressful, frustrating enviroment. We all have days like that, but for the officer, with few exceptions, everyday is like that. The officer that you are dealing with may have just came from a wreck, a suicide, a rape, or a murder, and you are the next person he/she sees and the officer has to change gears emotionally and mentally to deal with you and your situation.

We have all heard of the police kicking in the door of a house with guns drawn only to find that they are at the wrong house. As things get worse in America and crime continues to grow as the economy worsens, these types of scenarios are going to become more common place. If this happens to you, do exactly as you are told and do not argue with the high strung cops who thought they were busting in on a drug or street gang operation. It will not take them long to figure out the mistake. You may not know this but houses are being purchased in very high class expensive housing areas and being used for the sole purpose of manufacturing drugs. So you can see how a mistake can happen even in your nieghborhood.

There are to many scenarios to go over. But, to sum it up, it's not a perfect world and there are no perfect police officers even though we want them to be. What we mostly see when we talk about the behavior of cops is accentuating the negative and eliminating the possitive. In other words, when a cop does something wrong you will hear about it everytime, but you will seldom hear about what he/she did right.
beebopCOP

Now, I gotta comment here. First off I commended the Sheriffs boys who came and busted up the party accross the alley. They did what I expect of my LEO boys. When my Life, Liberty and Property are threatened, then and only then should LEO intervene. I attempted to correct the problem by reason, by squirting the people with a hose, and only then did I call the SO to have their cars removed off my property.

If they kick in my door in error, and I wake up, I can guarantee someone will die. Maybe me, maybe them. Problem with it is, if I kill one of them, I will more then likely be executed in my own home, or they will mysteriously find a meth lab in my garage, or Jimmy Hoffa's body in my freezer. I will be dead and cannot defend myself, but the guys who kicked my door in will get their stories straight, come up with a real good lie, and then drop a few things around my home to make it look good. Even "good" cops will do that in the face of jail time.

You are taking all this way to personal. I treat all government burocrats the same. With cautious silence.

[Big_Saw]

Man, this is getting so tiresome. Thanks Rossa for adding a voice of reason to the mix. I hope and pray that I never, ever, have to stop or deal with any of you in a law enforcement situation. There would be absolutely no way that once the contact was over that you would feel it was just and fair all around.
The inflections in my voice would have been wrong, if not that then my tone. Maybe I didn't hold my mouth just quite right. I have a bad habit of pushing my glasses up on my nose with my middle finger, so of course that would be interpreted as flipping you off. Maybe I took too long getting from my car to yours or back from yours to mine. Maybe I was too polite and you didn't feel that I could be an effective enough cop if you ever needed me to come to your house on a prowler call. Maybe your wife was with you and I flirted by saying " good evening ma'am". Maybe you thought I was flirting with you when I said "good evening sir". Possibly my take down lights (thats the ones on top of the car) where too bright on your tinted windows at two in the morning, sorry I didn't mean to think of my own safety there for a moment. Maybe you didn't get the "thank you" card in the mail two days later thanking you for our nice chat and for how polite you were. Of course that should have been followed by the sympathy card for inconveniencing you in the first place. Maybe I forgot the say thank you after you explained to me that you paid my salary and I'm sorry after you asked me if I knew who you were and I couldn't come up with an answer. Since I don't know you personally, and you didn't tell me about the concealed gun, I'm sorry that I mis-intrepreted your intentions and shoved my .45 in your face and yelled "don't move or I WILL blow your head off" when that gun accidentally peeped out from under your coat or seat.
I apologize for not being able to read your mind and that you can't read mine, oh...wait I forgot you can read mine, because all us cops are the same, just like the one you saw on tv hitting that guy for no reason.
I could go on, but the walls have been built and fortified.
There is no reason to discuss the facts, because our minds are made up. Right?
Trust me fellows, you win, when the crap hits the fan, I will look for my on kind.
beebopCOP

Easy, kitty....it's just spirited debate.....:D Nobody's sayin' ALL COPS ARE BAD.....at least, I'm not....but I DO say ALL cops have too much authority, and too little real accountability.

[beebopcop]

Man, this is getting so tiresome. Thanks Rossa for adding a voice of reason to the mix. I hope and pray that I never, ever, have to stop or deal with any of you in a law enforcement situation. There would be absolutely no way that once the contact was over that you would feel it was just and fair all around.
The inflections in my voice would have been wrong, if not that then my tone. Maybe I didn't hold my mouth just quite right. I have a bad habit of pushing my glasses up on my nose with my middle finger, so of course that would be interpreted as flipping you off. Maybe I took too long getting from my car to yours or back from yours to mine. Maybe I was too polite and you didn't feel that I could be an effective enough cop if you ever needed me to come to your house on a prowler call. Maybe your wife was with you and I flirted by saying " good evening ma'am". Maybe you thought I was flirting with you when I said "good evening sir". Possibly my take down lights (thats the ones on top of the car) where too bright on your tinted windows at two in the morning, sorry I didn't mean to think of my own safety there for a moment. Maybe you didn't get the "thank you" card in the mail two days later thanking you for our nice chat and for how polite you were. Of course that should have been followed by the sympathy card for inconveniencing you in the first place. Maybe I forgot the say thank you after you explained to me that you paid my salary and I'm sorry after you asked me if I knew who you were and I couldn't come up with an answer. Since I don't know you personally, and you didn't tell me about the concealed gun, I'm sorry that I mis-intrepreted your intentions and shoved my .45 in your face and yelled "don't move or I WILL blow your head off" when that gun accidentally peeped out from under your coat or seat.
I apologize for not being able to read your mind and that you can't read mine, oh...wait I forgot you can read mine, because all us cops are the same, just like the one you saw on tv hitting that guy for no reason.
I could go on, but the walls have been built and fortified.
There is no reason to discuss the facts, because our minds are made up. Right?
Trust me fellows, you win, when the crap hits the fan, I will look for my own kind.
beebopCOP

[Big_Saw]

Good post beebee, Like most on here, if you cooperate with the officer, he or she will generally cooperate with you. J Some on here have talked about cameras, and tape recorders and such, and if that is what you want to do, then by all means do it. It can protect you in court from a bad police officer. Now if I were a cop, and as soon as I walk up to a car you lay a recording device on the dash, or point a camera in my direction on the dash, then by all means you should expect a ticket. Mainly because you instantly assumed I was a bad cop that would threaten your rights in some way.

Thank you...you just supported my point...a non-LEO asserting their right to defend themselves preemptively from miscoinduct or CR violation, according to your line of thought, should be punished for doing so......using whatever means is available to the LEO given the situation.....

[gkim4107]

Good post beebee, Like most on here, if you cooperate with the officer, he or she will generally cooperate with you. J Some on here have talked about cameras, and tape recorders and such, and if that is what you want to do, then by all means do it. It can protect you in court from a bad police officer. Now if I were a cop, and as soon as I walk up to a car you lay a recording device on the dash, or point a camera in my direction on the dash, then by all means you should expect a ticket. Mainly because you instantly assumed I was a bad cop that would threaten your rights in some way.

[Big_Saw]

How about, when I'm pulled over, the LEO maintains an air of decorum and respect for me, as he expects it from me....don't speak to me as if I'm 16 years old, and I won't respond like I'm talking to a d*ckhead. That's actually my biggest gripe in the few times I've ever been stopped.....and I know for an un-contravertible fact that percieved arrogance and disrespect on the part of the IO has caused a growing number of simple stops to become all-out tirades from both sides......

I piss in your wheaties, you gonna be all "yes, sir - no sir?"

Yeah....me niether....

[RossA]

Well, I already took my bath for the year.

Dang, and it's only February!:eek:

[TheLastMountainMan]

Well, I already took my bath for the year. What more do they want?

[RossA]

[QUOTE=TheLastMountainMan;13707] I guess I'm a suspiosious caracter. QUOTE]

Mountain Man, it's like your mother told you: Cut your hair, take a bath, and cover up those tattoos!

[TheLastMountainMan]

In Missouri, you are not required by law to let the officer know you are legally carrying, only if they ask. I have had my vehicle searched probably 10 -12 times since I moved to Missouri in 85. I guess I'm a suspiosious caracter. Never bothered me much, except the few times I was in a hurry. Did have a zippo I liked very much come up missing during the "search". Not saying all cops are bad, but I really have met a small few that were not. I don't like the attidude some have, "ME JOE OFFICER, ME HAVE BADGE AND GUN, ME GOOD GUY, YOU DON'T, SO YOU BAD GUY." JMO.

[ryantx23]

This thread has some good information. Please allow me to add my $.02.
I don't get stopped for traffic violations often, thank goodness, but I have been stopped 3 times in the last 5 or 6 years. Twice for going 7 or 8 miles over the highway speed limit, and once for having a license plate frame which partially obscured the outer border of the license plate. Not exactly felonies, but police stops, anyway.
In my limited experience, when the cop pulls you over and he pulls in behind you, before he comes up to your car he will radio in your license plate number to find out if there are any outstanding warrants, etc. This will let him know whether this might be a "routine" stop or if it might turn into something else. I therefore have a couple of minutes before he gets to my driver's window, which I use to reach for my wallet, holding it up in front of my face so he can see that I am getting my driver's license and CHL out to give to him. I then put the wallet on the dashboard so I don't have to reach down again.
I then reach up to the visor where I keep my insurance card.
I then put my right hand high on the steering wheel where it can be seen, and with my left hand I hold the 2 licenses and the insurance card up high where he can see them and my hand.
Of course, I have already turned off the engine, turned on my flashers, and opened the driver's window.
As the officer reaches my window, I hand him the papers and say "Officer, I have a concealed handgun license and there is a pistol in a holster on my right hip" or wherever it happens to be.
After he takes the papers from me, I put my left hand high on the steering wheel where he can see it.
All 3 times I have been let off with a warning. I think the odds are that I would have gotten at least 1 or 2 tickets from 3 stops, but I helped the cops feel secure and like I was cooperating, and I have to believe that is why all 3 let me go.
On the issue of a search. I am a lawyer and I have been an adjunct professor of Criminal Justice as well. I have taught Criminal Procedure, so here is what the US Supreme Court says about vehicle stops.
There is SOME expectation of privacy in a vehicle, but it is less than in your home since you are out in public.
Also, since the officer has approached you, he has a right to act in furtherance of his own safety. Therefore, even at a "routine" traffic stop, an officer can require you to exit the vehicle, and he can search any areas of the vehicle which are readily accessible to the driver, where the driver could have a weapon concealed. This is generally known as the "wingspan rule", or how far you could be expected to reach from the driver's seat. By this rule, he could search under the driver's seat, in the console, maybe under the passenger's seat or in the glove compartment. Wherever you could reasonably be expected to reach for a weapon. The back seat is generally off limits without probable cause or consent because you can't reasonably be expected to reach for a weapon back there.
He can also conduct a "pat down" of your outer clothing to see if you are carrying a weapon. This is not a "search", and he is not allowed to go into your pockets, unless the pat down reveals something which gives him probable cause to believe that he has felt a weapon or other contraband.
I agree that if an officer wants to do a more thorough search of my car, I will ask politely "What probable cause do you have?" He may threaten to go get a warrant, but without probable cause he can't get one. Of course, we all know that some cops will lie in order to get a warrant. Especially if you piss them off.
OK, back to everyone else.

Good post RossA. You're right on the money as far as TS procedures and searching of vehicles. I don't see what people have been getting all drove up about. The fact of the matter is, Officers just don't have time to search every vehicle on every traffic stop they make. First of all, the logic in doing that is pointless. There is no need in doing a "wingspan" search without having a reason for doing so. I only search vehicles incident to arrest or if I have a VALID and necessary reason for doing so. Those necessary reasons being smell / odor of narcotics and contraband within plain view. I'm curious as to how many people here have actually had their vehicles unjustly searched by the police...