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  • #31
    One of my SILs, upper-middle-class, very well educated, was almost suicidal when Trump beat Clinton.
    "TEOTWIN !!"
    She was not amused when I listed a bunch of Clinton & Co's flagrant shenanigans and oft-very-dubious 'fellow travellers'.
    IMHO, POTUS Trump would bear watching *very* carefully, but was not rooted in the Washington Swamp, so definitely the 'Lesser Evil'...

    Certainly a case for NOTA {_} option on ballots...

    Given the mid-terms are presently voting, we'll see how it plays out...

    Snark Alert:

    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tolerance
    /

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Nik View Post
      One of my SILs, upper-middle-class, very well educated, was almost suicidal when Trump beat Clinton.
      "TEOTWIN !!"
      She was not amused when I listed a bunch of Clinton & Co's flagrant shenanigans and oft-very-dubious 'fellow travellers'.
      IMHO, POTUS Trump would bear watching *very* carefully, but was not rooted in the Washington Swamp, so definitely the 'Lesser Evil'...

      Certainly a case for NOTA {_} option on ballots...

      Given the mid-terms are presently voting, we'll see how it plays out...

      Snark Alert:

      https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

      https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tolerance
      /
      I've always said, if you have a republican in the white house, you want democrats in congress... and if you have a democrat in the white house, you want republicans in congress.

      Never let the same party rule both... that's a very bad idea.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Murphy View Post

        I've always said, if you have a republican in the white house, you want democrats in congress... and if you have a democrat in the white house, you want republicans in congress.

        Never let the same party rule both... that's a very bad idea.
        We are ruled (managed) by "Executive Orders" for the last few decades. We don't even need a congress. They do nearly zero.
        One day you eat the chicken.....next day the left-over chicken.....next five days you eat chicken feathers, head and feet.

        Comment


        • #34
          Not many of you have lived under a working congress. I did since Eisenhower. It is when political leaders can put their ego away, to work together on the countries problems. Problems that will face us over the next 10 years, include the following:

          1. Social Security bankrupt by 2024

          2. National Debt over 1 trillion by 2020

          3. Infrastructure falling down

          A. Most interstate road systems were built in the early 50's and need expansion and replacement.

          B. 14,000 Dams and 120,000 bridges replaced

          C. Replacement and expansion of airports

          D. Expansion of ports

          F. Replacement of railroads

          I did not expand into illegal immigration or Home Land Security problems.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by RICHFL View Post
            Not many of you have lived under a working congress. I did since Eisenhower. It is when political leaders can put their ego away, to work together on the countries problems. Problems that will face us over the next 10 years, include the following:

            1. Social Security bankrupt by 2024

            2. National Debt over 1 trillion by 2020

            3. Infrastructure falling down

            A. Most interstate road systems were built in the early 50's and need expansion and replacement.

            B. 14,000 Dams and 120,000 bridges replaced

            C. Replacement and expansion of airports

            D. Expansion of ports

            F. Replacement of railroads

            I did not expand into illegal immigration or Home Land Security problems.
            LOL! Rich, are you sugar coating it for us? I thought the country was in trouble. This country is so screwed.

            Dale

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by dalewick View Post

              LOL! Rich, are you sugar coating it for us? I thought the country was in trouble. This country is so screwed.

              Dale
              Haven't people been saying that for a long time though? I remember my grandfather saying this country was going into the sewer, and that was 45 years ago....... and I remember my father saying the same thing... and we're still here.

              As an older person, I have to wonder if my increased awareness of world and national concerns is simply causing an over reaction.

              When you're a child, spilling your ice cream cone seems like the end of the world.
              When you're a teenager, being dumped by your boyfriend/girlfriend seems like the end of the world.

              Its just a matter of perspective.

              I think our country is doing fine, especially when we look to other countries for a reference point to see where we are on the class curve sort-to-speak.
              Sure we have some problems to work out, but when have we not had problems? And when we get these problems solved, imagine what new problems will pop up.

              I just don't think its as bad as some folks do... its all in the perspective.

              I don't think my home will burn down, but I still carry home insurance. I prep because something bad could happen, not because I think it will.

              Comment


              • #37
                Murphy - - Have you ever lived overseas? I mean more then a year.

                I did for 14 years in the far east including Japan, Korea, Thailand, Philippines, and Taiwan. I saw everything from dirt poor people trying to live day to day to Tokyo today. There is a very big difference in living standards, education, and survival rates.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Why the post above. You remind me of people who state "It will not happen here" and stick their heads in the ground if they are wrong.

                  I tried to wake people up to do their own research about problems happening NOW! Not in 20 years but today.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by RICHFL View Post
                    Murphy - - Have you ever lived overseas? I mean more then a year.

                    I did for 14 years in the far east including Japan, Korea, Thailand, Philippines, and Taiwan. I saw everything from dirt poor people trying to live day to day to Tokyo today. There is a very big difference in living standards, education, and survival rates.
                    My wife is from overseas, and while I've been in other countries, they were all short duration stays.

                    Why the post above. You remind me of people who state "It will not happen here" and stick their heads in the ground if they are wrong.

                    I tried to wake people up to do their own research about problems happening NOW! Not in 20 years but today.
                    I would never say "it won't happen here" because it very well could... and I think its obvious I don't stick my head in the sand about it.

                    Maybe that's where I'm different than many.. On one side its "It will never happen here", on the other side its "Its going to happen here".. and then I'm stuck in the middle thinking I should have fire insurance in case my home burns down..

                    It is clear that I process information differently than most folks. It is unfortunate that the left thinks I'm some right winger and the right thinks I'm some left winger. Kind of comical in a way.

                    I think it could very well happen here, its entirely possible that some minor event becomes a catalyst for a larger event. But then, on the other side of the coin, I think it probably won't happen so long as people have McDonald's, a roof over their heads, text messaging and enough porn to watch.

                    Prisoners who are comfortable and well fed do not riot.

                    If I was forced to bet, I'm going with McDonald's... but I'd have to be forced. Until then, hope for the best, prepare for the worst.



                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Murphy View Post

                      Haven't people been saying that for a long time though? I remember my grandfather saying this country was going into the sewer, and that was 45 years ago....... and I remember my father saying the same thing... and we're still here.

                      As an older person, I have to wonder if my increased awareness of world and national concerns is simply causing an over reaction.

                      When you're a child, spilling your ice cream cone seems like the end of the world.
                      When you're a teenager, being dumped by your boyfriend/girlfriend seems like the end of the world.

                      Its just a matter of perspective.

                      I think our country is doing fine, especially when we look to other countries for a reference point to see where we are on the class curve sort-to-speak.
                      Sure we have some problems to work out, but when have we not had problems? And when we get these problems solved, imagine what new problems will pop up.

                      I just don't think its as bad as some folks do... its all in the perspective.

                      I don't think my home will burn down, but I still carry home insurance. I prep because something bad could happen, not because I think it will.
                      My sarcasm doesn't come through as well in writing. As far as my view of our country (USA) and it's future, we are screwed. We are a freak of nature. A country that started out with the belief that individual freedom and rights were more important than the government. That those rights would not be infringed on and anyone could say what they thought and live how they pleased. Much of those rights our populace has now conceded. Much of it within the past 50 years. I see young people wearing red badges with the yellow sickle and hammer of the U.S.S.R. on there shirts and jackets as well as t shirts with Che Guevara on them campaigning for members of the democratic party. Espousing socialism as though it's a great thing and they're experts on it. I've seen socialism and communism as actual governments and trained to go to war and defeat them. They won't need a war if some of our youth has there way. I could go on, but why? I no longer wear a uniform, but I am a soldier. Will be till the day I die. I live my life even now as a soldier. I have a mission at hand (paint a room, get groceries, etc.) and my focus is that mission. In my down time I prepare (my prepping) for whatever mission I believe may come my way. I don't worry about what I can't change because I believe worry is a waste of time and energy. Politically,...I am one of Hillary's Deplorables clinging to my religion and guns. There are many of us but probably not enough to change our future.

                      I'll get off of my soap box now.

                      Dale

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by dalewick View Post

                        My sarcasm doesn't come through as well in writing. As far as my view of our country (USA) and it's future, we are screwed. We are a freak of nature. A country that started out with the belief that individual freedom and rights were more important than the government. That those rights would not be infringed on and anyone could say what they thought and live how they pleased. Much of those rights our populace has now conceded. Much of it within the past 50 years. I see young people wearing red badges with the yellow sickle and hammer of the U.S.S.R. on there shirts and jackets as well as t shirts with Che Guevara on them campaigning for members of the democratic party. Espousing socialism as though it's a great thing and they're experts on it. I've seen socialism and communism as actual governments and trained to go to war and defeat them. They won't need a war if some of our youth has there way. I could go on, but why? I no longer wear a uniform, but I am a soldier. Will be till the day I die. I live my life even now as a soldier. I have a mission at hand (paint a room, get groceries, etc.) and my focus is that mission. In my down time I prepare (my prepping) for whatever mission I believe may come my way. I don't worry about what I can't change because I believe worry is a waste of time and energy. Politically,...I am one of Hillary's Deplorables clinging to my religion and guns. There are many of us but probably not enough to change our future.

                        I'll get off of my soap box now.

                        Dale
                        I think one of the main issues people don't seem to take into account is population. The number of people is directly and inversely proportional to the number of laws and the amount of freedoms we have.

                        The more people who live in a given area, the less room they have to move around (physically, philosophically, and legally), the more laws that are passed to maintain civil society, and the fewer freedoms and liberties that are enjoyed.

                        Lets look at a simple example... You live in an area 10 miles by 10 miles square with 10 other people. Do you think its safe to fire a high powered rifle in the air?

                        Now imagine you live in the same area, but with 100,000 other people... Still think its safe to fire a high powered rifle in the same way?

                        And that's a simple one.. the same thing applies to environmental protection, travel, medical care, criminal activities, politics, etc.

                        The more people we have, the fewer liberties we keep... People who have three, four, five, or ten children are the biggest problem.. Heck, even in their own homes you can see the liberties vanish. When you are one of two children, you get to take your time in the bathroom, you get more one-on-one time with the parents, etc etc. But when you're one of five or ten kids, you have to share more of the limited resources available.
                        And this applies to the entire society... More people = fewer freedoms.

                        Some demographics have a culture of large families, that's part of the problem.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Murphy View Post

                          I think one of the main issues people don't seem to take into account is population. The number of people is directly and inversely proportional to the number of laws and the amount of freedoms we have.

                          The more people who live in a given area, the less room they have to move around (physically, philosophically, and legally), the more laws that are passed to maintain civil society, and the fewer freedoms and liberties that are enjoyed.

                          Lets look at a simple example... You live in an area 10 miles by 10 miles square with 10 other people. Do you think its safe to fire a high powered rifle in the air?

                          Now imagine you live in the same area, but with 100,000 other people... Still think its safe to fire a high powered rifle in the same way?

                          And that's a simple one.. the same thing applies to environmental protection, travel, medical care, criminal activities, politics, etc.

                          The more people we have, the fewer liberties we keep... People who have three, four, five, or ten children are the biggest problem.. Heck, even in their own homes you can see the liberties vanish. When you are one of two children, you get to take your time in the bathroom, you get more one-on-one time with the parents, etc etc. But when you're one of five or ten kids, you have to share more of the limited resources available.
                          And this applies to the entire society... More people = fewer freedoms.

                          Some demographics have a culture of large families, that's part of the problem.
                          I see the point your aiming for. I have also seen the reason of control for the better of society used by evil men. Names like Mao Zedong, Joseph Stalin, Edi Amin Dada and Pol Pot to name a few. These men claimed to want to make there people safer and better and passed laws to those ends and we all know how they worked out.

                          We may also have another philosophical disagreement. I don't believe "society" is ever "civil". The higher a society climbs and the greater it's population, the less "civil" it becomes. Historically societies sooner or latter reach an apex at which point they are then either destroyed or vanish. It is just part of basic biology and has repeated itself all the way throughout human history. I'd refer you to John B. Calhoun's experiment with rats as the basis of a behavioral sink as a comparison of growing societies. It correlates.

                          As a young man I walked the streets of some of the largest cities on the planet (Tokyo Japan, Hong Kong, Bangkok Thailand, NY, LA, Istanbul Turkey and others) and I saw little civility in any of them. In my experience, civility is an attribute of barbarians. in barbaric societies if people aren't civil to one another it is an offense that may cost them there lives.

                          My believe is that "society" is a human invention by those that seek to control and manipulate there fellow man/woman for there own benefit and it gets controlled by nature when it reaches an apex that nature can't support.

                          We are not exempt. Sooner or later there will be to many rats in the cage, globally.

                          As an old man, I'm just trying to enjoy life to it's fullest and wait on my next visit from the Reaper. He's visited me 8 times now and I'm still here. I don't know how much time I have left but I try to enjoy every day. Hope it's many years.

                          Dale

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by dalewick View Post

                            I see the point your aiming for. I have also seen the reason of control for the better of society used by evil men. Names like Mao Zedong, Joseph Stalin, Edi Amin Dada and Pol Pot to name a few. These men claimed to want to make there people safer and better and passed laws to those ends and we all know how they worked out.
                            While population control is what I was aiming for, the way China, Stalin and others have gone about it was way too draconian for my taste.. I would never accept that type of rule.

                            Shaming and education, tax incentives, and various other methods would be better suited. But ya, population control is important, at least until we are capable of leaving the planet.

                            In less than 100 years, bar any events that thin the herd, we will have killed ourselves off one way or another via over-population.

                            We may also have another philosophical disagreement. I don't believe "society" is ever "civil". The higher a society climbs and the greater it's population, the less "civil" it becomes. Historically societies sooner or latter reach an apex at which point they are then either destroyed or vanish. It is just part of basic biology and has repeated itself all the way throughout human history. I'd refer you to John B. Calhoun's experiment with rats as the basis of a behavioral sink as a comparison of growing societies. It correlates.
                            Rats don't have the power of reason or science like people do, well.. at least some people. Yes, in the old days before knowledge and science were widespread, we were just a few steps above rats, but that's no longer true.

                            As a young man I walked the streets of some of the largest cities on the planet (Tokyo Japan, Hong Kong, Bangkok Thailand, NY, LA, Istanbul Turkey and others) and I saw little civility in any of them. In my experience, civility is an attribute of barbarians. in barbaric societies if people aren't civil to one another it is an offense that may cost them there lives.
                            I think that's a completely different discussion..

                            My believe is that "society" is a human invention by those that seek to control and manipulate there fellow man/woman for there own benefit and it gets controlled by nature when it reaches an apex that nature can't support.
                            No.. we know that not to be true. Society is the natural progression of cooperation for the benefit of the participants.

                            We are not exempt. Sooner or later there will be to many rats in the cage, globally.

                            As an old man, I'm just trying to enjoy life to it's fullest and wait on my next visit from the Reaper. He's visited me 8 times now and I'm still here. I don't know how much time I have left but I try to enjoy every day. Hope it's many years.

                            Dale
                            If we can get our population growth under control and our greenhouse gas emissions under control, we'll be fine...

                            The population problem and the greenhouse gas problem are not even big problems even though they have big consequences.. Fusion will take care of the greenhouse gas issue, and we're very close to that.. and the population problem is just a matter of social marketing and incentives.
                            Last edited by Murphy; 11-09-2018, 12:39 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Murphy View Post
                              While population control is what I was aiming for, the way China, Stalin and others have gone about it was way too draconian for my taste.. I would never accept that type of rule.

                              Shaming and education, tax incentives, and various other methods would be better suited. But ya, population control is important, at least until we are capable of leaving the planet.

                              In less than 100 years, bar any events that thin the herd, we will have killed ourselves off one way or another via over-population.


                              Rats don't have the power of reason or science like people do, well.. at least some people. Yes, in the old days before knowledge and science were widespread, we were just a few steps above rats, but that's no longer true.


                              I think that's a completely different discussion..


                              No.. we know that not to be true. Society is the natural progression of cooperation for the benefit of the participants.


                              If we can get our population growth under control and our greenhouse gas emissions under control, we'll be fine...

                              The population problem and the greenhouse gas problem are not even big problems even though they have big consequences.. Fusion will take care of the greenhouse gas issue, and we're very close to that.. and the population problem is just a matter of social marketing and incentives.
                              I'm pretty sure the citizens of China, Russia, etc. had no idea what the final agenda of there leaders were or they would have never gotten to be leaders. Normally, you don't know a shark is going to bite you, until your bit. By the time they were ready to start killing there own citizens, they had removed there citizens ability to stop them or even protest against it.

                              Your ideas for population control seem biased (just asking), toward more advanced countries and/or societies. The parts of the world with the fastest growing populations are doing so primarily because of religious reasons. I don't see that changing any time soon.

                              100 years? I don't see the planets human population lasting anywhere near that long at our current fecundity rate. Nature won't allow it and we seem pretty hell bent on destroying our own environment. For my children's sake and their children, I hope I am wrong. Nothing would make me happier.

                              And now for your prejudice attitude toward those beautiful little furry friends, Norway rats. It's not very nice calling them stupid and unable to reason problems out. JUST JOKING!!! LOL!

                              Actually rats are extremely intelligent and can consistently solve most problems they are presented with in the lab or in nature. They are equal to pigs on the intelligence scale which are just under dolphins. No, they don't have the same reasoning abilities as humans but behavior wise, they correlate very closely to us on most life activities. The seek out food, water, shelter and mates. They have young which they raise and protect and when there populations become to dense they kill there own for food, shelter or mates and when that population becomes even denser there behavior becomes even closer to ours, killing there own young, cannibalism, mob fights, homosexuality, lower fecundity rates and more.

                              As far as what I stated as "My beliefs". Those aren't up for debate. They are what they are and I earned the right to believe them. I've buried to many brother's to not be cynical
                              , though the good Lord knows I try.

                              Dale

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by dalewick View Post

                                I'm pretty sure the citizens of China, Russia, etc. had no idea what the final agenda of there leaders were or they would have never gotten to be leaders. Normally, you don't know a shark is going to bite you, until your bit. By the time they were ready to start killing there own citizens, they had removed there citizens ability to stop them or even protest against it.
                                That's a valid point.

                                Your ideas for population control seem biased (just asking), toward more advanced countries and/or societies. The parts of the world with the fastest growing populations are doing so primarily because of religious reasons. I don't see that changing any time soon.
                                That is unfortunately true, but since I'm not willing to condone inhumane controls or measures, it is a limitation. That said, it is also improper to point at the bad behavior of others as an excuse for ones own behavior.
                                Just because my neighbor drives a Hummer doesn't mean I quit trying to be as green as I can be.

                                100 years? I don't see the planets human population lasting anywhere near that long at our current fecundity rate. Nature won't allow it and we seem pretty hell bent on destroying our own environment. For my children's sake and their children, I hope I am wrong. Nothing would make me happier.
                                I'm pretty sure we'll both be quite dead by that time, hopefully of very old age, but dead none the less. I'm someone more optimistic that we will be able to delay our own demise. Humans are at their best when the world is at its worst.

                                And now for your prejudice attitude toward those beautiful little furry friends, Norway rats. It's not very nice calling them stupid and unable to reason problems out. JUST JOKING!!! LOL!
                                To be honest, other than a long past girlfriend, I have very little experience with rats.. Heck, I think I've only seen one in my entire life when hunting and can't even confirm it was a rat.

                                Actually rats are extremely intelligent and can consistently solve most problems they are presented with in the lab or in nature. They are equal to pigs on the intelligence scale which are just under dolphins. No, they don't have the same reasoning abilities as humans but behavior wise, they correlate very closely to us on most life activities. The seek out food, water, shelter and mates. They have young which they raise and protect and when there populations become to dense they kill there own for food, shelter or mates and when that population becomes even denser there behavior becomes even closer to ours, killing there own young, cannibalism, mob fights, homosexuality, lower fecundity rates and more.
                                Ya, I've seen the youtube video's.. don't care.. they're still dirty and disgusting.

                                As far as what I stated as "My beliefs". Those aren't up for debate. They are what they are and I earned the right to believe them. I've buried to many brother's to not be cynical
                                , though the good Lord knows I try.

                                Dale
                                That's cool.. I don't have beliefs myself.. never really did.. and I don't understand people who do have them. Beliefs based on evidence and statistical probability are one thing, but beliefs based on irrationality is something I don't think I'll ever comprehend.

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