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  • prkchp76
    replied
    ok thank's to everyone for your point's of view i can say i understand the situation better now

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  • Mungo
    replied
    Once again avking puts it into perspective. Well done.

    100% behind your comment on never having to much of anything. Especially non perishables.

    I also very much agree that an organized group defending from a prepared position can hold off many times their own number. Our own Military has shown that time and again over the last 8 years alone. If you live at your retreat and have the time to make the right defensive preparations, nothing short of armor or arty will be able to move you out. Simple things like setting distance markers for firing, ditches and tree placements for blocking vehicles, night vision, razor wire, etc...are all force multipliers. 10 people firing together can sound like 100.

    Plenty of ways to keep your stuff if you have the time and cash to prepare.

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  • Pioneer
    replied
    Different side of the fence

    Point 1.
    In my situation, I own my land. I also live on my land which is secluded enough with nature's elements, adding to the protection of my property, I personally would not feel too much of a treat by someone trying to make it to my actual location.

    Point 2.
    I have a few neighbors in the area who live as I do. We're almost all, off the grid and somewhat prepared with food, water, seeds etc. and because we all live close enough to communicate via radios, we watch and help one another.

    Point 3.
    If someone were to try taking my land in a post scenario of TSHTF, the simplest words to make this short and sweet would be: "Let's Dance!"

    Paper, computers or no paper and no computer records, The property I have bought is fully rented by me as long as I'm breathing and I'd refuse to just allow someone to take what I have personally worked for.

    Now this is a different scenario from perhaps helping someone in their time of need too. I would be cautious of offering too much help to anyone that possibly passed by but I wouldn't just sit in the warm indoors and watch them freeze either. There would be strict negotiations prior to me actually welcoming someone inside or even on my land that I own while I'm alive.

    Part of the real question probably should be; "With the best thought out planning, the most investments, the most food and water supplies, isn't it more likely, in the real time world we live in, that some off-the-wall lucky person or a few groups of people, who never prepared for anything in their lives, just might be the only ones who survive?"

    We do not know what, if anything will actually happen. We can prepare for the worst and perhaps be the first ones gone.

    Just my thoughts

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  • Big_Saw
    replied
    Actually, I do remember that.....the guy was a nut, but had a legitimate gripe, and I found myself cheering for the underdog in a way.....but I digress...

    I'm a big proponent of multiple strategic fields of fire and lightning fast mobility in a "civil war" or perhaps more likely a "revolutionary war", the ability to stick-and-move decisively will be paramount....I'm drawn back sometimes to the scenario in the movie "The Patriot"....a hidden rally point system, with underground supply chains...this seems to be a plausible scenario, and it's already worked once :D

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  • OneBadPig
    replied
    Patton said (rough paraphrase here) that fixed fortifications are a monument to mans stupidity. If mountains and oceans can be defeated so can anything we build.
    Bear with me here but imagine for a moment that your BOL is beseiged by brigands. Stashed in your barn is a surplus tank. You roll out and handily deal with them. You dont even have rounds for the gun. Unless they have rpg's they are toast.
    I know thats a fanciful scenario and beyond our budgets but remember that guy a few years ago that welded plates to a dozer and flattened his town?

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  • prkchp76
    replied
    very well put

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  • Big_Saw
    replied
    True enough....who knows whether their ticket will be punched before the first shot is fired?

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  • avking
    replied
    I had another thought on this subject. I think, not all, but the majority of roving gangs, will be poorly trained, barely organized and have little in the way of a command structre. The nature of the group dictates the leader will always have to fight to keep his position within the group. A group like that will live off stealing from the weak, and if they encounter formidable opposition, will not want to use it's limited resources to fight an ornery homesteader that does not fold in the first salvo.

    Winter in Idaho can be tough, and I know that eventually, I would be overtaken. But, after the first 24 hours of loosing men to sniper fire, sitting out in the cold and dealing with any wounded from the initial attack, the attackers would not be very comfortable. On the other had, our group is inside, warm, not hungry and has the advantage for the time being. If you can send constant fire down range for extended periods, they will have to rethink the wisdom for keeping up the attack.

    Contrary to other posts, I think a small group of defenders can hold out very well, against a larger group of attackers. Once you get above, oh 5 to 1, then I think it would be a lot tougher. Any defender can be rooted out eventually, but the attackers need to be willing to sustain heavy losses to do it. And you don't need to be in a castle to defend yourself. Even a log home offers great defense. It will stop almost all small arms and rifle fire. The risk of being burned out is fairly easy to prevent with just basic maintenance of your property. Everyone who lives on our mountain lives with the reality of forrest fires, all the time. We are used to taking precautions. There are two very poular products now, to protect log homes. One is a fireproof paint that you can take a flamethrower to and it will not burn. The other, what we user, is a foam/chemical that is applied to the side of a home when a fire is coming. I think it lasts for about three days or so. We have seen this work firsthand. It saved several homes a few years back. Delivery is normally done with a pressure washer, so something would need to be adapted to make it work under seige, but it could be done. Ideally, we would like to replace all the exterior wood with stone and be done with the fire risk, almost entirely.

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  • Big_Saw
    replied
    Originally posted by avking View Post
    If your property is remote enough and you are self sufficient enough, your in a better position to keep it. We do not own thousands of acres, but our driveway is exactly three miles long with aprox. 1,000' elevation gain. Odds are, no one is going to stumble upon our place. If it is the end or social order, we (and many others like us), would start by turning those driveways back to nature. Planting tree's and shrubs, turning the soil and getting grasses, weeds and natural plants to grow. It would not take that long before we had 3 miles of forrest between us and the closest road.

    I have mixed feelings about ammo storage. I think it will make one of the best barter items available, so keep extra for that purpose. The average man or man firefight is going to take just a few seconds to a few minutes. But, someone who is well dug-in on property they own and know, can fight for a lot longer than that. And if you have so much spare ammo that you can just keep a constant stream heading down range, many the bandit might very well move on for easier pickins, as the nomad probably does not have nearly as much ammo to waste.

    Just another set of possibilities. It could happen any of 100,000 ways, so if you can afford it, I don't think there is such a thing as to much of anything.
    100% agreement.....better to invest in quantity whenever possible....even if to a fault....

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  • avking
    replied
    If your property is remote enough and you are self sufficient enough, your in a better position to keep it. We do not own thousands of acres, but our driveway is exactly three miles long with aprox. 1,000' elevation gain. Odds are, no one is going to stumble upon our place. If it is the end or social order, we (and many others like us), would start by turning those driveways back to nature. Planting tree's and shrubs, turning the soil and getting grasses, weeds and natural plants to grow. It would not take that long before we had 3 miles of forrest between us and the closest road.

    I have mixed feelings about ammo storage. I think it will make one of the best barter items available, so keep extra for that purpose. The average man or man firefight is going to take just a few seconds to a few minutes. But, someone who is well dug-in on property they own and know, can fight for a lot longer than that. And if you have so much spare ammo that you can just keep a constant stream heading down range, many the bandit might very well move on for easier pickins, as the nomad probably does not have nearly as much ammo to waste.

    Just another set of possibilities. It could happen any of 100,000 ways, so if you can afford it, I don't think there is such a thing as to much of anything.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ponce
    replied
    Is not what you have but rather what you do with what you have.....

    Some people are holding so many rounds of ammo that the floor of their hiding places are about to colapsed.........a fire fight do not last longer that five minutes (at the most) and is not like if you and the other guy will be sitting on lawn chairs at 2,000 yards taking turns shooting each other.

    When the fire fight is over either you have his ammo and guns or he will have yours.

    Anything over 5 acres you would need an army to guard it or you would loose everything in it over night.

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  • beebopcop
    replied
    Originally posted by prkchp76 View Post
    ok it's 2014 the world is here but we are still in an economic flat spin the goverment has failed and all hell is breaking loose.You have your preps you BOUGHT your land you've got 10 gazillion round' sof ammo per weapon you also have a few people in your little camp...BIG DEAL..... bbc big saw diesel mags bear with me here...When we bought our land we had a goverment with structure,security,and trust...Now we are in a lawless nation where it take or be taken.I AM NOT SAYING OR TELLING ANY BODY TO STEAL TAKE OR PERMANTELY BORROW ANYTHING...Here is my question who and how are you going to tell some one you cant come here this is my land paper will be worthless so will computers and the such...I am truly sorry if i have offened anybody but unless its hundreds of acres i just dont see how 1 to 20 acres is gonna make a difference with out some massive fortifactions making it very obvious will take all opinions on this....PLEASE someone enlighten me:confused::confused::confused::confused::confuse d::confused::confused:
    Very good post and question;

    I think the biggest and best element to any plan, be it a BOL, BOB, Shelter in place, etc is the ability to trash or adapt that plan according to the situation. Whatever the SHTF situation is there will be two groups of people; the haves, and the havenots (prepared and unprepared). The vast majority will be in the latter group. I personally believe, and this of course will greatly depend on your area of the country, that the ability to move swiftly and at a moments notice will be the key to how long we survive. Being nomadic is not a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination.
    I believe that at some point owning land is not going to mean anything for the reasons that the other posters have listed. Having said that, I would not pass up an opportunity to purchase good land. If nothing else, it may be an initial place to run to and/or store goods. However, the ability to hold that land will change as the scenario changes and this is where we must be flexible. Intelligence gathering should be at the top of your list in any of these scenarios because this is the only way that you are going to know when to get the hell out of Dodge.
    My point is with your 1 or 20 acres of land and your gazillion rounds of ammo, you are right, your deed isn't worth the paper it is written on when there is a well armed organized horde that decides they want it. I say have your planned safe retreat or fallback point ready and give the land to the horde. Live to fight a better chosen battle that you can win.
    bbc

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  • prkchp76
    replied
    thanks cb best reason yet

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  • cbprice797
    replied
    Well as for owning BOL now it has some good reasons behinc it. First and foremost is the simple fact that if you own the land you are escaping to you can build upon it and change it to suit yuor needds. Try going to a farmers land a setting up a BOL this weekend, I would be willing to bet that he would not appreciate you doing this.

    Now yes, most assuredly you will own this land, assuming you have made your mortagage payments, when TSHTF. After it hits it really won't matter much anymore will it? So the reason for buying the land is simply to have it avaialbe to you after TSHTF with a fully stocked get away. There is really no way to do this effectively in "normal" times unless you either own or are purchasing the land.

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  • Dracos
    replied
    There has never been a fort built that cannot be taken. But next time you are in Puerto Rico check out Fort Morro. The purpose of a fortress is to give the occupants an advantage over the attackers. My land could be taken, but the price would be so high that it would not be worth it.

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