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  • Hunter or Rancher?

    I like meat, I'm sure many of you do also. So if we have societal collapse will you hunt or ranch? Let's call this total collapse, no government left anywhere. I personally prefer the nomdic style of the hunter because I do not have the numbers to run/protect a ranch at this time and my knowledge of ranching is borderline non-existant.
    Perfer et obdura; dolor hic tibi proderit olim.
    ~ Be patient and tough; some day this pain will be useful to you.-Ovid

    Mus uni non fidit antro.
    ~ A mouse does not rely on just one hole.-Plautus

    Non semper erit aestas
    ~ It will not always be summer.

  • #2
    Yes

    However, most stone age wanderers were also farmers and ranchers to some extent. They knew where the trees with good fruits and nuts were, and probably even planted some in a good area. Then, when they wandered back through that area would harvest the fruits and nuts. Archeological evidence also suggested that bird eggs played a very important part of most nomadic peoples lives. They knew when and where birds nested and would make sure to be in that area when it was nesting season. Some cave drawings suggest that they would also hunt or scare away predators from that area to ensure a healthy harvest. Nomadic hunter gatherers most certainly used draft animals early on, and dogs have been constant companions of mankind probably since the times of Adam and Eve. Dogs are not livestock, but do require care and increase the likelyhood of a group or individual surviving through hunting, and provide a reasonable measure of protection.

    I have a rather different view on history, in that I am a follower of Forbidden Archeology, the theory that mankind is as old as the earth, and civilizations rize and fall, but humanity ramains. If my theory is correct, then agriculture and animal husbandry are probably as old as mankind itself.

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    • #3
      Folks, I'm up for either hunting or ranching if it gets me food, plus hides for clothing and containers, innards for the lime pit to extract Potassium Nitrate (a.k.a. Saltpeter for gunpowder,) fats for oil and soap, and bones for tools, implements, and decoration.

      Of the two, however, I say that ranching is best for long-term survival in a SHTF situation. After all, while the hunter's keep is only as steady as his ability to track and slay it, the rancher's keep is self-insured.

      The rancher doesn't have to stalk his livestock like the hunter, and the rancher can breed his livestock to get the most desired traits e.g. the most meat, the furriest coat, the thickest hide, greater amounts of fat for rendering oil and soap, etc.

      Also, with ranching, there is necessarily ownership of both the livestock and the land the livestock uses. While ownership does entail responsibility, it also entails an added incentive to maintain, maximize, and increase resources, which can only serve to further human survival.

      In the case of hunting, if there is no private ownership of the animals or land, there is no impetus to maintain them and hunters eventually hunt the prey until the prey leave or become extinct. This, of course, does damage to the surrounding environment and of course, is detrimental to human survival.

      So, I say hunt (as well as fish and trap) for the short term, but domesticate and ranch for the long term.
      "Apocalypse is by no means inevitable." --Jim Rice.

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      • #4
        Legionnaire and smf1971, You both bring up good points on the drawbacks of ranching (and like yourself, I am no expert or even a novice.)

        Fortunately, if a rancher was also an electrician or electronics expert (or hired such) he could use electric fencing and electronic surveillance to secure the herd and wouldn't need nearly as much manpower as a primitive rancher.

        I've seen solar-powered units that provide the charge for the little zapping wires that keep livestock within safe confines. Also, there are kid's remote-controlled cars that are equipped with working surviellance cameras. As long as these could be kept safe and in good repair, a modern rancher could have it good in grungy times.
        "Apocalypse is by no means inevitable." --Jim Rice.

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        • #5
          Rusty, while I couldn't agree with your Cosmology, you do bring out a good conjecture on how man made the transition from a hunter-gatherer to a settled rancher/farmer. It is also conceivable that domestication of animals probably came from instances where man trapped animals, but the animals survived the trapping and man had to decide what to do next.
          "Apocalypse is by no means inevitable." --Jim Rice.

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          • #6
            Not too many believe in the

            Forbidden theory of archeology. No worries. Under the traditional theory, probably the first animal to be domesticated was some sort of canine or canid. More then likely either a wolf or wild dog. Probably the first food animal was some sort of bird, and then more then likely an early form of sheep or goat.

            Dogs are a very unique animal, in that they are the most easily genetically manipulated mammal. The have been bred to be in a symbiotic relationship with humans. If a problem (getting a piece of meat from a hole that cannot be reached) the wild canids such as a wolf or coyote, just give up. A domesticated dog will actually try, then come to a nearby human for help. I need not mention how we have used dogs throughout history. Hunting, protection and sport.

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            • #7
              Rusty's theory isn't as far fetched as we would like to believe. It is highly pretentious to imagine that civilization made an uninterrupted march from Africa to the Middle East, to the Mediterranean and outwards to Asia and Europe without some starts and stops.

              Just because it isn't in recorded history doesn't make it so. I'll trust my Bible as much as the next fellow but even that is rather vague on a number of areas.

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              • #8
                I've ranched cattle and hunted and I can tell you hunting is MUCH more work. Disease, predators and poor fences are the biggest worries of modern ranching. Small scale SHTF ranching with a dozen or less cows and a bull would be more of an issue of security from the two footed predators is my guess. Lots of nights of security watch over the herd I'm sure.

                Enough grazing fields plus enough hay for winter would also be a problem of security that would be difficult to hide though you could hobble the cattle after you moved them like a sheepherder. Even then the shear volume of hay needed for anything but the most temperate of winters would require some horses to pull a trailer or if you were lucky train them for cutting and tilling.

                Though I have CERTAINLY never done this my grandfather still had his horse drawn scythe and pull tiller rusting out in the fields when he was alive. Many sources claim donkey's and asses were better for this but he claimed they were just to hard to train and mean as they are wicked smart but not overly inclined to hard work.

                Honestly sheep, pigs and goats or some free ranging chickens (nightly coop from predators) would be MUCH easier to pull off without giving away your location. Though disease would be a problem as smaller animals have less resistance in my limited observation.

                A hunter could avoid the onerous job of having to defend against humans for a long time if he was stealthy. Raising a family would make hunting more difficult as you would need to move with the wildlife like the trappers used to do.

                The hunter would also have the luxury of avoiding the sewer/trash issues that becomes a problem. I have lived in a house with a french drain sewer and know the semi-annual cleaning joy they require. A modern fermentation/leeching field sewer is an amazing invention but again not maintenance free! Most ranches/farms burn their trash but you would need to seriously consider burying it during a real breakdown to minimize your security issues.

                Ultimately, depending on the scenario, ranching and farming are fairly dependent on a modicum of civilization by armed protection. Hunters would eat less reliably but probably have a higher survival probability in a societal collapse situation.

                All bets are off though if you are talking hunting with firearms as you can hear a high powered rifle for miles in the plains. Carrying everything you need to butcher and cure a large deer or similar almost necessitates a small group though. Then you are back to the same security issues as before!

                Always comes back to a group/community it seems. Enough trained guns could protect a ranch but it would be tenuous existence until some stability was restored.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by das View Post
                  Rusty's theory isn't as far fetched as we would like to believe. It is highly pretentious to imagine that civilization made an uninterrupted march from Africa to the Middle East, to the Mediterranean and outwards to Asia and Europe without some starts and stops.

                  Just because it isn't in recorded history doesn't make it so. I'll trust my Bible as much as the next fellow but even that is rather vague on a number of areas.

                  I am a pretty devout Lutheran, and I find nothing incompatible with the Forbidden Archeology theory. Just as I find nothing incompatible with my Liberatarian ideology and Biblical teachings. In fact, I feel that Christ was much more Libertarian then anything else.

                  Not to push religion, but did not Paul tell us to be more Christlike?

                  He preached against organized government, taught that charity was an individual thing, not a government thing, and told his followers to beware of the government, and the organized churches.

                  He also had little positive to say about Lawyers:
                  Luke 11:52
                  Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

                  Lest I remind you of what was described as paradise by God

                  Isaiah 65:21-22
                  21And they shall build houses and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards and eat the fruit of them.
                  22They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat; for as the days of a tree are the days of My people, and Mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands

                  (no taxes, no central government, and I keep the fruits of MY labor)

                  He also comanded his followers to practice self defense and preparidness.

                  Might I remind you of Luke 22:36
                  Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.


                  Might I also remind you of Corintians 16:2
                  Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.


                  I guess that is my Sermon for this week. It is something to think about, whether Christian or not, if you do not believe, you can take the verses as wise words.
                  Last edited by Rustyshakelford; 09-17-2008, 04:44 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Hey, I'm a city boy. If you're trying to tell me that McDonald's and Dominicks will cease to exist, I guess I'm in the starved category. Next, you'll be trying to convince me that meat doesn't come wrapped in plastic when you ranchers find it!
                    ENJOY AND STAY SAFE

                    TEOTWAWKI happens to all of us everyday. Always be prepared!

                    P.A.W.T. = PROUD AMERICAN WHITE TRASH

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      hehe, yeah we just find it out in the field...hard part is picking it up before strangers find it.

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                      • #12
                        I would guess that the strangers who find it would be considered hunters or are they gatherers? My next question goes to the miners who dig up the powdered milk from the milk mines. Why do you add water to it, then bottle it and sell it as a liquid. Wouldn't it be cheaper and easier to ship and sell it dry?

                        OK that just cost me a keyboard. My wife was reading over my shoulder and spewed her Mountain Dew all over it.
                        ENJOY AND STAY SAFE

                        TEOTWAWKI happens to all of us everyday. Always be prepared!

                        P.A.W.T. = PROUD AMERICAN WHITE TRASH

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Nitehawg,

                          Sooo...are you the author of these lyrics?

                          "Peaches come from a can,
                          They were put there by a man,
                          In a factory downtown..."

                          --"Peaches", The Presidents of the United States of America

                          :D ;)
                          "Apocalypse is by no means inevitable." --Jim Rice.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TheUnboundOne View Post
                            Nitehawg,

                            Sooo...are you the author of these lyrics?

                            "Peaches come from a can,
                            They were put there by a man,
                            In a factory downtown..."

                            --"Peaches", The Presidents of the United States of America

                            :D ;)
                            Or a lyric my dear old departed Grandfather used to say (I dont think he wrote it thought)

                            Carnation milk is the best in the land
                            Here I sit with a can in my hand

                            No teets to pull, no hay to pitch
                            You just punch a hole in the son-of-a-B****

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              TUO and Rusty, you both got me. I've never heard those before.

                              Back to OP now. Currently live in the big city. Through the years have grown the usual tomatos, beans, cukes, etc.. Enough for our own use and sharing with neighbors. Moving to rural area, already set with neighbors about who will grow what and sharing (is this starting to sound like a commune?). However, it's the protein part of the equation that has me wondering. There are black angus ranches in our area, along with turkey and chicken farms. I'm presuming that we will be able to buy beef, turkey, chickens direct from the source. You think I'm correct, or should I get used to tofu?
                              Naturally, hunting is also big in our area. Some families hunt for survival. If they don't kill it, they don't eat. I also presume that the wildlife would be depleted rather quickly, due to the hunting pressure. Am I correct, or does Ma Nature adjust and provide?
                              ENJOY AND STAY SAFE

                              TEOTWAWKI happens to all of us everyday. Always be prepared!

                              P.A.W.T. = PROUD AMERICAN WHITE TRASH

                              Comment

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