‘Reckless’ Russian Jets Collide With USAF Drone

[Tugaloo]

‘Total Loss’ After ‘Reckless’ Russian Jets Collide With USAF Drone Over Black Sea, Says DOD

A U.S. drone was lost over international waters on Tuesday after a pair of Russian fighter jets flew dangerously close to the aircraft, dumping fuel onto the drone and then striking its propeller.

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2023/03/14/total-loss-after-reckless-russian-jets-collide-with-usaf-drone-over-black-sea-says-dod/

Yes. the drone was over international waters.

[orangetom1999]

Did not an American P3 reconnaissance plane collide with Chinese aircraft some years ago...in international waters....??

Was the USS Pueblo in international waters???


All the usual suspects were beating their desks back then too.


I Remember seeing a C 130 Hercules aircraft out ..at Langley AFB years ago..and it was decked out with four hardpoints and Ryan Firebee Drones hanging off it.

like this ..

DC-130 mounted Firebees DN-SC-85-06043 - Ryan Firebee - Wikipedia


Now even back then different packages could be put in a drone to tailor the drone to different missions....just like a U2 spy plane...different packages installed in it for different missions.

However..I am sure that today those packages as well as the drones themselves have been significantly updated and even smaller since those olde days...including GPS navigation.


This meaning that up to date fire control coordinates can be quickly updated..and targeted..via drones.


I don't think this will be the last drone put down. I suspect that the Russians and now the Chinese have carefully studied our drones for vulnerabilities.


My non Ishmaelite .02,
Orangetom

[Tugaloo]

The Hainan Island incident?
https://www.npr.org/2022/12/30/1146170609/u-s-says-chinese-intercept-could-have-caused-air-collision
That was over international waters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luWxixLqsMQ
Oops, that was in 2022; I guess you meant this incident?
https://www.npr.org/2020/09/08/910788664/analysts-recall-plane-collision-in-2001-amid-worsening-china-u-s-relations

As the USS Pueblo was ~16 miles offshore.
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/uss-pueblo-captured

The Ryan Firebee is or was(?) used for gunnery practice by our interceptors. The other incidents above were deliberate.

Yes, drones can be equipped for reconnaissance missions or missiles. What does that have to do with dumping fuel on it then, making contact with its propeller over international waters??

A drone doesn't think, it is navigated by human pilots fly it from an unknown location. Supposedly, this drone was stationed and controlled in Romania.

https://www.popsci.com/technology/mq-9-reaper-drone-russia-crash/
Did you know one of the drone control locations was at Balad Air Base in Iraq? As (p)resident Biden abandoned megabucks of military equipment in Iraq; there is little doubt the Chinese have it. That was one piece of the "puzzle" and Russia is trying to salvage the remaining piece.

Each drone has two people controlling it, a pilot who flies it and a sensor operator. According to the link below "the Reapers are deployed in groups of four." For some reason, this Reaper was flying alone over international waters. Perhaps a solution to this blatant disregard for international waters; send the usual 4 drones, one for reconnaissance and 3 armed with air to air missiles? Not to attack, but same reasons as many homeowners have a firearm for defense.....
https://science.howstuffworks.com/reaper4.htm

In every incident mentioned and more, the US was clearly in international waters.

[orangetom1999]

by Tugaloo...

Yes, drones can be equipped for reconnaissance missions or missiles. What does that have to do with dumping fuel on it then, making contact with its propeller over international waters??

I know a bit about our intelligence gathering capabilities and daring going way back ...even after WW2 and on Russia.

International waters is a term often passed on to people who know little about our abilities...and or intentions.

And most Americans have no clue how often and how close our submarines would follow the Russians without them being aware.
Both our submarines and skippers were that good....even into Russian Waters. See Whitey Mack..

Whitey Mack and the USS Lapon (thesubvet.com)


USS Lapon (SSN-661) - Wikipedia


Remember...Francis Gary Powers and his U 2 was flying over Russia when it was shot down...not international air space.
How often did the SR 71 penetrate other nations air space....:though I think the U2s of today have longer range but are much much slower.


I also can figure for myself that if the Pubelo was 16 miles off shore...how close would she come to the shore at night..and where???


I also know that one of the best intelligence machines for certain information gathering is a submarine...the ultimate stealth tool.

However...since the advent and refinement of unmanned drones..I suspect that Unmanned Drones are taking over more and more of these tasks.

However....most drones are not that stealthy...though I believe someone is working on that very issue.


This is the USA...and we spy on everyone....friends and enemies alike...and of recent it has become more and more clear that our government is spying on Americans.....big time ....as government power increases more and more towards "unlimited Government."


As to the drones...My limited understanding is that they can be controlled from anywhere in the world today. That some have been controlled from right here at Langley AFB....to the other side of the world. Satellite control has bridged that much of the world and brought it closer....smaller if you like .


It is my belief that both sides are stretching the truth about what happened out there for political reasons...concerning this drone and it will happen again.


I am trying not to get excited over it except to observe for the "Usual Suspects " beating the war drums....again....as in past history.

We have way too many of our finest blood ....buried all over this globe..and I have been to a number of these cemetaries...including the one in Normandy, France.



Orangetom
Not an Ishmaelite.

[Tugaloo]

As a drone's weapon systems are exposed and the drone was unarmed and over international waters. OTOH, as their visual showed the drone was unarmed; it was time to break bad.

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2023/03/16/watch-u-s-military-releases-russian-su-27-fighter-harassing-american-drone-over-black-sea-footage/

From the link: "Eucom blasted the behavior as “reckless, environmentally unsound and unprofessional.”
Obviously, Eucom just described the Russian military to a T. As many European nations border Russia and quite a few were under the Russian boot, I'm struggling understanding why they commented as they did when they ought to already know it.
With no response, it will happen again and again.. Until a fighter jet lights up their threat display.

[orangetom1999]

Agree Tugaloo...it will happen again and again.

Those drones can be armed....and so too can the P3 Orion submarine hunter and or reconnisance aircraft. i believe the P3 is a multi role aircraft...as is the C130 today.

So too the Replacement for the P3 turboprop..today in jet engine configuration.

One of the prime Russian Submarine hunting stations was Keflavik, Iceland where I spent a year in uniform...and Navy P3s were transitioned up there on regular rotation. Russian Submarines going to the Atlantic would have to transit on either side of Iceland so that nation was strategic in the submarine hunting business.


Environmentally unsound....Wow!!!

You do know that our jets/planes frequently dump fuel ...if heavy ...before landing on a carrier...yes????

Someone is scrapping the bottom of the barrel in the political "Blame Game" here.

I just don't trust either side in this..and I know our own government will gaslight us when needed..no matter what party is in office.


I have here in my collection a short and enlightening book by a General Smedley Butler...titled "War is a Racket" in which he describes himself as the military gangster arm of the US Government and what he was tasked to do for American businesses as a Marine in Central America

War Is a Racket - Wikipedia


Don't get me wrong here Tugaloo..someone invades this land I am right there...and armed.

But I have never forgotten my trip, even as a child, to Normandy , France. Even back then I knew what it was.


The Ukraine is in big big trouble...and soon to go down if events happen naturally. But my instincts tell me to buckle up...this is where someone is going to get desperate to manufacture an event to get everyone properly , socially, politically on board....even if it means we have to send our own people into battle against the Russians ...directly...to protect someone's investments....and many of these investments are not even American...but international.

I just smell Ishmaelites working feverishly behind the scenes to protect their investments..and the Ukraine is their private investment.....just as is the White House.


My non Ishmaelite .02,
Orangetom

[Tugaloo]

It will continue to happen as long as we have a weak president and not a strong one.

One of the variations of the Littoral ships carries 2 helicopters to protect the aircraft carrier and negate submarines. It's similar to a chess game; if a player makes a move the other player has counter moves; however, it's a deadly chess game.

Dumping fuel was common for as long as aircraft carriers were around. From what I was told by a WWII Navy or Marine pilot. If the aircraft had fuel and wrecked while landing, it added the risk of fire to the wreck.

The racket usually begins after the war starts. There is a lot of money in building anything and everything for the war effort. Same as many other women, my mother worked in a defense plant during WWII. The more skilled the higher they were paid, plus the endless overtime.
Even more important than US business interests in Ukraine are food and fuel. Ukraine and Russia are the largest suppliers of legumes and wheat to Europe and many nations with both. Either also supply fuel and natural gas.
Germany is expanding coal mines; as a result Greta Thunberg and other green people demonstrated and delayed construction. The German Police removed them.

https://www.axios.com/2023/01/16/german-police-remove-greta-thunberg-coal-protest-site

Germans want to stay warm, have electrical power, and also eat.

Only Putin knows how far he is willing to push before he ignites a war by denying western Europe fuel and food. Actually, the West will be also denied legumes and wheat. There is the event you mentioned. Yes, it was manufactured, but by Putin.
Same as so many, I've seen war and the last thing I want is war. OTOH, I'm well fed, have electricity and fuel changed that and potentially, my opinion will change.

During Vietnam. my uncle was AF and he flew on the old C-47 (DC-3) “Gooney Bird,” out of Udorn, Thailand on an armed C-47. We called them Puff (the magic dragon) or Spooky.
I grew up with my grandmother's youngest daughter; in age, we were separated by 11 years. She was more of a big sister than an aunt. She married the AF airman, I mentioned. When they were stationed at Spangdahlem AFB in Germany; somehow, he arranged for me to fly on AF aircraft to visit every summer as long as they were there.
I remember seeing these signs:
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/BNFFWB/ger...ign-BNFFWB.jpg

[Garand]

One thing the Russians can guarantee will eventually happen, "Play Stupid Games, win Stupid Prizes"

[Tugaloo]

One thing the Russians can guarantee will eventually happen, "Play Stupid Games, win Stupid Prizes"

Russians have a saying "a monkey playing with a hand grenade." They applied it to 0bama. Of course many here took it as a racist comment. To Russians it meant doing something really stupid.

[Armyjimbo]

The war isn't meant to be won its meant to be continuous. How else a giant war factories going to make xxillions.

[Tugaloo]

True! OTOH, a long war without winning is a war that will be lost.

As you were in the Military, imagine your tours lacking resupplies. If they were lacking supplies, your highly superior force would have lost to an incredibly inferior force.

The Muj used the shoot and scoot with the Brit .303 rifles to shoot Russians from outside the AK's effective range. "We" dug out M14s added optics and created the DMR which filled the gap between the service rifle and a sniper. That was expensive just how "we" forgot the enemy's tactic is a serious goof.
Wars are expensive and winning one is even more expensive, To those who say it isn't worth the expensive, join and see for themselves. In Ukraine, they will take any volunteers.

[orangetom1999]

I'm with Army Jimbo on this ..

The war isn't meant to be won its meant to be continuous. How else a giant war factories going to make xxillions.

Some wars are not meant to be won....but to satisfy certain economic conditions ....which are to be maintained when the wars are over or the conflicts drawn down.


By Tugaloo..

True! OTOH, a long war without winning is a war that will be lost.

The olde ones who taught me ...stated that there are today..planned engineered losses...for the reasons stated in response to Army Jimbo's post.

Vietnam appears to be one of these and now too...Afghanistan...and possibly Iraq as well.


What they taught me happens in these conflicts ...is that under the guise of war...huge amounts of civilian contractors are brought in to do heavy construction work,...under the guise of war.

What happens in reality is that the necessary infrastructure of these nations is brought into 20th and 21sr century standards....in the valuable resource areas.

Then when the time comes ...the wars are wound down and the enemy allowed to take over..even armed with our left overs for which we do not want to bring back.

The nescessary function of this enemy taking over is to put the country and it's resources into storage and off the marketplace....while at the same time doing one other important function.....keeping competitors out.


This appears to be the new game plan in the countries listed...build up the necessary and important infrastructures...and then wind down the wars and turn it over to a people whom will keep competitors out....even if we have to arm them.


This is what the Olde Ones taught me...and history seems to be bearing this one out.

I am not so sure this will apply to the Ukraine unless the program/plan is to get rid of Putin..and put Russia into storage...resources off the marketplace.

I do not sense that significant contractor business is taking places in the Ukraine as was done in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Vietnam.


History will bear this one out....as we are dealing with Ishmaelites on what I believe is an international scale.


This...by Tugaloo...

The Muj used the shoot and scoot with the Brit .303 rifles to shoot Russians from outside the AK's effective range. "We" dug out M14s added optics and created the DMR which filled the gap between the service rifle and a sniper. That was expensive just how "we" forgot the enemy's tactic is a serious goof.

Now this one tends to get to me Tugaloo..as we have so many college trained people in leadership today. Yet all too often we seem to forget the history ...

I swear Tugaloo.....are we become that giftedly stupid among our leadership today.

They took the 20 mm gun out of many of our jet fighters in Vietnam...only to find ourselves involved in some serious dogfights against the MIGs at cannon range...and many of our missiles had serious flaws.

Finally today someone has woken up and put the cannons back in our jets.

What does it take for leadership to wake up.???


Oh.....and I have a Enfield rifle made in Ishapore, India but in .308 calibration and it is a good shooter with a fine magazine capacity.

I like it better than any Ak or AR I have handled. One drawback...it is a heavy full sized rifle....just like my Garand.

Interesting to me that there are still a number of Enfields doing respectable service around the world in the hands of people who know how to use them.

And yes....the same could be said for the M14 rifle.



I had to look it up..........here...as i had forgotten the fellows name..

Who said, "Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it?" - eNotes.com


My non Ishmelite .02,
Orangetom.

[Tugaloo]

It is those in charge who should have noticed.
OTOH, it was a motor pool sergeant who came up with the hedgerow trimmers that allowed our tanks to bust through the hedgerows as they headed West towards Nazi Germany.

Hint, it is called over confidence developed from way, way too many year of being told how smart they are. Yes, but they are book smart.
Even in industry, the same applies.

Also in industry many contractors are hired. When I was involved they were paid more than an average permanent employee who did the same thing. However, with no medical, no 401K with income matching and less, they are a cheap date. Their weakness was no product experience.

The reason behind the Navy's Top Gun school was created because Vietnam showed our pilots lacked "dog fight" skills.

One of our military's weaknesses has been they prepare for the next war based on the last war.

In the hands of one who knows how to use them, there are many weapons that are highly effective if the end user knows how to use them.

They can't wake up because the costs of doing the right thing would be prohibitive.

The AR or AK are my favorite calibers; however, I know what either can do and I can do with either. Due to its accuracy, I lean towards the AR.
In .30 CAL and excluding bolt actions, my favorite is a Pacific Arms Corporation (PAC) all numbers matching StG 58 FAL. It has the Imbel gear logo receiver, Austrian Steyr hammer forged barrel. It easily breaks clay birds and their pieces at 200 meters using Hert, Radway Green, SA, military Using reloads, sorted brass etc. it is sub MOA at 100 meters. The only modification is I crowned the barrel. As it was issued by over 90 nations, the FAL was nicknamed the "right arm of the free world."

Ah, you enjoy quotes from the past.. Here's an ancient one by Heraclitus, an ancient Greek.
"Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn’t even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back."

[orangetom1999]

Wow Tugaloo....

Well said here....well said....

They can't wake up because the costs of doing the right thing would be prohibitive.

And I've not heard this quote but very true again...

Ah, you enjoy quotes from the past.. Here's an ancient one by Heraclitus, an ancient Greek.
"Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn’t even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back."

Thanks for that ancient wisdom...still applicable today..


Oh...by the way...I knew about the hedgerow tool built and put on our tanks...in WW2...but I did not know it was a motor pool Sergeant....thanks again for fleshing that history out for me.


Orangetom
Not an Ishmaelite.

[orangetom1999]

Say Tugaloo....

About this in your last post...

One of our military's weaknesses has been they prepare for the next war based on the last war.

I listen to a series of audio tapes and lectures on everything...history, politics, religion. science, economics ....behaviors...etc etc...and that quote of yours is pretty much how this speaker summed up events..

The Illustration used was about WW1....and the British early in the war wanted the infantry to break a hole for their calvary to break through...and go to work.

The working philosophy was that it takes 8 rounds to bring down a horse.

But they had forgotten about advances in artillery and also the Maxim Machine gun.

The British got slaughtered early on in the war....using the last wars thinking...

The Saying became "there will never be another General Haig".

BBC - History - Historic Figures: General Douglas Haig (1861 - 1928)


Until that lecture series I had never heard of General Haig in WW1.


My non Ishmaelite .02,
Orangetom