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  • People are starting to wake up...

    I was looking at the politics section of a large board called city-data.com. Its a board for people relocating in the US & around the world. There's a thread there discussing the possible secession of Montana over gun rights, & in that thread is this post.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Stephan_K
    Nobody sees the bigger picture do they... Everyone thinks it is just a bunch of wingnuts making trouble. The stupidity of the American people will be the death of this country !!! We already have one foot in the grave because of it... and most of the people are kicking at the other leg and don't even know it!
    1st bold- No, not everyone. Not even the majority when moderates are counted. It's when moderates start hearing disturbing language from gun owners they become alarmed, and begin to question how responsible anyone carrying a firearm actually is. When your supporters are using arguments defending waco's behavior that precipitated the tragedy, and top it off with vague threats about how militia and responsible gun owners agree with the actions of Timothy McVeigh... this is a very far far cry from the purpose of 2nd amendment. Wouldn't you say?
    When responsible gun owners allow loud mouthed immature anarchists in their ranks they do grave harm to themselves, and their cause. When anyone shouts violence in a peace march, the cause is undermined. Review the past 10 pages or so of this blog and see how deluded a few have made themselves about the notion that the military, held together by binding oaths and disciplined obedience to their commander in chief, should be coaxed into anarchy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition
    2nd bold- As centrist, I've done my best to sit impartially and hear all sides like a judge on all issues, and I'd like to point out that from where I sit, joe public has been played on massive scale for decades. This is the consequence of politicians exploiting special interest groups willing to win at any price, even when it runs contrary to their own health in 10 other areas. The symptom is exactly as you describe, people don't even know who/ what they're actually kicking anymore. I support our constitution unequivocally, but not the pick and choose method that false representation has gotten by on for more than half a century. Ask me to choose between upholding 1st OR 2nd amendment... that's a non choice, I refuse to choose, and that kind of artificial package deal trojan horse leaves this nation vulnerable to every malevolent con artist down the pike. This cannot continue. It simply cannot. None of that crappioca represents ANYONE, and ALL parties in ALL states have a serious problem with trojan horses. It's become the rule, not the exception, and that's not acceptable.

    We the people are far more vulnerable to the system in place than most voters can comprehend. The representational system has been compromised. The checks and balances have been compromised. Executive powers have been expanded beyond their rightful place in the prior administration. No one's rights are guaranteed so long as that door remains open. Not one soul. Not liberals, not conservatives, not moderates, not anyone. Do not divide yourselves further because it will only play into the hands of charlatans profiteering. Economic warfare perpetrated upon the globe is far more evil than deliberately driving an airplane into a building. They used america to do it.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fred314X
    You're right on both counts. The stupidity of the American people will be the death of this country. And it is just a bunch of wingnuts--the problem, however, is that the wingnuts are the ones who seem to be interested in doing the legwork to get their agenda passed, while everyone else sits around and laughs at them.

    Laughing at wingnuts is a dangerous practice, because they haven't got a sense of humor and are unaffected by it. They should be stamped out as quickly as possible. Not doing so is, or will be, the fatal error made by the rest of the American population.


    Sorry Fred, they aren't mere wingnuts. I'd like to ask you if any one human being could level America as low as it has without consistent, deliberate, concerted efforts over a prolonged period of time on many levels of power. How could checks and balances be so eloquently undermined, so swiftly, so seamlessly?
    I'm afraid they're much smarter than just wingnuts who got some organizational skills together in an unholy alliance.
    Since when have American citizens been relentlessly pitted against one another?
    Since when have people been voting republican but not getting republican? Since when have party politics played at a level where they don't care to win a debate on merit, they mean to annihilate the other side with finality?
    Since when did it become OK to play to lose in commerce?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Stephan_K
    If there's any blame what so ever to lay on myself for anything in this life, I'll be the first to lay it and lay it on heavy for what ever it's worth. Society loves to place blame and at the same time does nothing about it. But as long as blame is laid, society collectively is happy ! I have absolutely no issues if anyone wants to blame me for anything. Hell, blame me for the economy if it makes one feel better !!! Blame is a bull**** word as far as I'm concerned. It means and fixes NOTHING. Action regarding issues does and "blame" has no part in that !

    If you take a look at many of my posts, mentality and behavior is just what I point out in many topics I discuss because many of those topics are not the result of just one person. My comments were not directed at any one person. Are you personally offended by them ?

    And yes I do feel I talk to the wall a lot...


    I am not in anyway offended by you. I consider your input intelligent, very solid arguments, and I applaud your commitment to upholding our constitution. The nasty habit promulgated by media persuasion techniques puts all too many leaning on stereotypes to communicate complex ideas to the masses. Yes, I too have been guilty. This behavior alienates support from people you wouldn't expect. Feel you're talking to a wall... who doesn't anymore? The bigger problem is that forces in media and representatives hocking drama are consistently leading people to believe their fellow citizens are 'against' them. This is patently false. If anyone cares to call a spade a spade, the language is directed AT a group in an attempt to justify getting permission FROM their group to strike first blood. Sound like our foreign policy?

    I'm disgusted by the lack of civility that runs rampant in America, sold as irreverence and 'plain talk', giving people license to be abusive and disrespectful. Rap music is as equally offensive to me as Rush, Hannity, O'rielly, Coulter et al. If you've got nothing to offer but hatred, you aren't anything but a whining narcissistic brat. The former-black people being fed a diet of BS that white people conspire against them day and night, and the latter- red states are oppressed, ridiculed, held in contempt, have been abused by blue states. Centrists and true conservatives are eyeball deep in BS.

    I'm wondering why it should be in anyone's mind in any state that they wouldn't be backed up by the other states. I'm wondering if representation at state level is selling it's citizens the notion that the rest of the states wouldn't come to the aid and defense of the other, especially when it comes to the constitution. Those same 'yuppies' drove hummers cross country from California to help Katrina victims because gov't floundering was unacceptable to them. It was unacceptable to the majority of the states as well.

    We are the taxpaying adults. WE are responsible for the shape our country is in even if I didn't vote for bush. I voted McCain in 2000 primary-- why didn't yall see bush for what he was? I'm angry for sure, wish enough republicans would stand up with traditional accountability, but all I keep hearing is blame the liberals. In terms of accountability, what rational conclusion can the rest of us make? We've had an empty suit potus for 8 yrs?? What the hell is 'red' actually representing when judging by actions alone?

    Whatever trillion scale milk has spilled needs cleaning up, and we need to get to work on fixing what's broken, even if it means building something entirely new. We need to look honestly at the whole picture and try to move forward WITH the constitution. Not an option. Not negotiable. Refusing dialog, refusing to address root causes, believing you can preserve YOUR constitution independently with your borders full up... it won't work. Divide and conquer. You'll just be a satellite nation vulnerable to a whole other host of jackals you didn't count on, and allow the rest of the states right to bear arms to become weakened to the point that even if they mean to come to your aid and defense they'd be prohibited by law from doing so. You need to consider what ceding means to our troops overseas trying to keep the peace between irrational tribes throwing rocks at one another. What is it going on in America, more rock throwing???

    Do not break ranks from anyone defending the constitution. Obama is a professor of constitution. He took an oath to uphold it, just like any soldier or sailor in the history of our nation. This question is squarely in the supreme courts lap. Challenge each one of them to defend the constitution.

    My reason for saying what I did is that you need to be more aware of what moderates see when instigators use incendiary language toward NRA. Similarly, I'm sure you've witnessed how wound up liberals get for being bashed so regularly every which way for decades now. The real message gets lost and nobody hears the wise when it kicks in. The burden is upon you, as responsible gun owner, to conduct yourself in a way that does not mislead moderates.

    The same stereotypes sold in headlines about bloodthirsty religious is the same stereotype sold in headlines about liberals eating children for breakfast. The polecat is behind the headlines repeated by the masses, and it's not your dem/repub neighbor. Freedom of religion is not the synagogue vs mosque vs church vs atheists. It's not science vs church or the other way around. This is an artificially generated war promulgated in media hell bent on convincing people greed rules all, alienating good people from one another with fear mongering, creating the illusion of zero sum games between citizens, inducing them to destroy the very things they claim to love out of fear. Who profits from this? 2nd grade level cautionary tale is offered in "The Sneetches". There is no excuse about lack of education, or lack of capacity to comprehend. It's been a money making machine feeding willful ignorance preying upon insecurities of individuals and groups longer than I've been alive.

    You need to see things from liberal eyeballs just for a minute. Why is the left kicking the right leg? Wholesale stereotype you're a vestige of fascism the left leg saw. You were the one that voted facism in. They're verbally and litigiously attacking 'red' because what was cloaked behind red in the previous administration was an abomination. They're correct to fight facism, they're wrong to attack their cousins who went about defending the constitution in another venue. Live free or die is just as valid as Philadelphia freedom.

    The day you have to question if you'll be deported to gitmo for having an opinion contrary to your president/mayor, or mistaken for a terrorist by a pimply faced kid in combat gear patrolling in mass transit you might be able to relate. When a man backhands his wife at the dinner table, then proceeds to shove a napkin in her mouth and duct tape it as a condition of existing in a home they share, dinner will never be the same. Not ever. That backhand (Machiavellian tactics) came from Bush admin. in the name of republicans. Maybe not the guy you thought he was but still it was done in your name.

    Representational system has lent itself to much abuse in latitude. People attack the gas attendant for the price of gas killing them. Meanwhile, the real turds playing shenanigans tilt the commodities market to siphon the fortunes of every man woman and child on the globe. Go ahead and put a name and face to the criminal who decided gas would be $5. The system as it is won't lend itself to accountability. It's bigger than our congress. That's how Enron happened. The same flawed legislation that permitted Enron is still in effect when AIG is getting bailed out. Ankle biting legislative, judicial, and executive branch trying to wrestle a global economic monster down will not help anyone. It is the HAND of avarice & malevolence wielding the economic gun that caused this.

    Where was Montana when patriot act was getting ratified? Where was your stance on hoover tactics resurrected? Where was your moral outrage when your constitution was just a piece of paper? Liberals were all but shut out of the process to keep us all within the framework of the constitution. Who was kicking the left then? Who has made unrelenting attacks to discredit the ACLU for decades?

    LEFT AND RIGHT:
    Moderates are limited in patience for hatfield mccoy BS because one way or another everyone loses in immeasurable ways. Extremist tactics will be treated as such in due process of law. For either side to abuse the spirit of the law in self service damages the constitution in ways that have far reaching consequences for the survival of every single one of we the people. We're in the same boat, have been all along, and shooting holes in the boat isn't going to conclude the way you believe.

    Liberals mean to keep guns out of the wrong hands. NRA is also against guns in the wrong hands, knowing that it runs contrary to the true purpose of 2nd amendment. Weasels hiding behind 2nd amendment defenses have publically been renounced by NRA, and statements are clear that NRA will not tolerate guns being used in commission of crime. NRA supports harsh punishments for anyone wielding a gun against law enforcement officers. Those who support 2nd amendment need to be acutely aware of where your guns are pointing. Your language should not be careless or lack discernment. Displaying a lack of reverence for life will be equated with sociopathic behavior. Do not allow yourselves to be baited by anarchists.

    Pacifists, I applaud your intentions to foster peace by your strict observance in your personal lives. The price to pay for your commitment to those principles may someday be a violent death, but your commitment is what I honor. Your lives have had the basis to exist for more than 5 minutes BECAUSE of law enforcement & military protection. I love amish & Quakers. You're welcome. Where there are sheep, wolves are attracted. Do not argue that a cop should not be armed. Do not argue with the armed citizen who means to prevent/ mitigate tragedies such as these.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Ferguson There is a time and place for all things. Tibet could only be free if it were defended. I admire the dali lama, and will honor his request that I do not defend him with arms. I have Tibetan books in my library and I mean to preserve them for posterity even as a catholic.

    Liberals have many misguided notions about how to go about things. By and large they're accustomed to urban settings where organized structures like cooperatives solve most things. This absolutely does not and will not work in rural states (without becoming urban themselves, hate to see that happen to Montana). Rural states encourage people to take responsibility for all of their own needs directly, which I applaud, but y'all need to know that this purist theory is impossible to practice in densely populated urban areas. 20 million people cannot have 3 acres each to grow their own food, put up a solar panel, and still attend the profession they're ideally suited. Professions that enrich all our lives with technology and diverse choice available through mass production & distribution networks. Thank you farmers. Thank you professions.

    Example--See Chicago years back-- 5,000 telephone companies vying for their own business, to the detriment of all. 5,000 phone wires blocked the sun on city streets, and competition for market share became a destructive expression of capitalism. You need to acknowledge the level of violence in DC- the wrong hands regularly have guns. Liberals need alternative solutions other than the way they've been approaching the problem. What advice would you offer DC as if they were your kin? And by the way, they are. We're Americans.

    My enemy is not my fellow citizens. My enemy is lies.
    Every time I find a conservative who is an enemy of lies, I find my America.
    Every time I find a liberal who is an enemy of lies, I find my America.
    I do not care what their religion is, what generation, what color state or skin. This for me is the only 'for me or against me' affinity argument worthy of enlistment.
    Let my America stand on truth. ~Harborlady
    Last edited by barkingowl; 03-20-2009, 12:55 PM.

  • #2
    People are in a panic and while they panic, some in government try to push through their own agandas to "passify" them.

    Bad vegetable (spinach & peanut)? Oh so helpful Monsanto has just the cure in a bill that will hamper the small farmer, even though the problem wasn't caused by small farmers.
    People lost their insurance? Let's nationalize health insurance!
    Don't like people getting big bonuses? Let's make it so contracts are no longer legal (a grey area, but still against our constitution)!
    Oh no! Criminals have guns!!! Let's take away gun rights so that criminals are the only ones who have guns.
    Don't like the war? Let's give our soldiers something to do at home in case we are attacked by homeland terrorists.
    Cities going broke? Let's give them money so they will know that the federal government is there for them (never mind getting rid of all the federal mandates).

    It's getting to the point where if I had a way to, I might be looking for a new country. :(

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by herbalpagan View Post
      People are in a panic and while they panic, some in government try to push through their own agandas to "passify" them.

      Bad vegetable (spinach & peanut)? Oh so helpful Monsanto has just the cure in a bill that will hamper the small farmer, even though the problem wasn't caused by small farmers.
      People lost their insurance? Let's nationalize health insurance!
      Don't like people getting big bonuses? Let's make it so contracts are no longer legal (a grey area, but still against our constitution)!
      Oh no! Criminals have guns!!! Let's take away gun rights so that criminals are the only ones who have guns.
      Don't like the war? Let's give our soldiers something to do at home in case we are attacked by homeland terrorists.
      Cities going broke? Let's give them money so they will know that the federal government is there for them (never mind getting rid of all the federal mandates).

      It's getting to the point where if I had a way to, I might be looking for a new country. :(
      I feel your pain HP, but we do live in the greatest country on earth! Nothing wrong with the country, we just need to replace the government! It needs refreshing every couple of centuries anyway!
      Cam

      Comment


      • #4
        Yea I agree Cam. Either vote the bums out or do it wome other way.

        Comment


        • #5
          You are right, the basics of the country are good. BUT that is based on the assumption that it follows the constitution. These politicians are trying to dodge around it. It's all good to say that we should vote them out and get rid of them, maybe start new with all new folks in office; but in reality, when it comes down to it, most people vote for "the devil they know". There is also the fact that many of us live in states where it's impossible to make a change...I live in Mass, where Independents, Libertarians, and Republicans are seemingly far and few between (not really, but it doesn't make any difference). Try ousting the old guard (Kennedy's), try getting the old guard to listen...it just doesn't fly here.

          :(

          Comment


          • #6
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeYscnFpEyA

            Comment


            • #7
              I saw that, it's great! I'm planning to take part in the tea bag thing, but I was alterted to the fact that the White House has asked that if you do participate, that you only send in the tea label, as they are throwing out all envelopes with tea bags in them for fear of some toxic substance.:D

              Comment


              • #8
                We don't need more moderates. We need more radicals who are willing to stand up for personal freedom and stop comprimising. No more taking money from some to give to others. No more giving up freedom of speech. No more comprimising on gun rights.

                If I want to get me a full auto machine gun and wear a I hate "insert group of choice here" then we ought to do it. I don't want to be taxed to feed people who won't feed themselves.

                We need radicals, people like Madison & Jefferson. People that understand the federal government has no role in helping people. None, Zip, Zero, Nada. Yes even you! If a state wants to do it, fine, but don't force welfare, medicaid, and unemployment for everyone down the throats of freedom loving people because Commiefornia want to do it.

                Let the states give it a try and see which states get all the jobs, the ones will welfare systems or the ones that support freedom and property rights. People can be free to move to the state that is in line with their values.

                There is a reason states rights exist. One state can try something, if it works, the rest can adopt it, if not, then we haven't f**ked up the whole damn country. That is the problem with our system now, too much centralized control. Too much dependency.

                It was one thing when the big government jack booted thugs stole my money to give to poor people, now they are taking it and giving it to Citigroup and Bank of America. Enough theft. Enough stomping on my rights. Not the rights given by the constitution, my human rights given by god and merely affirmed in the constitution.

                I feel better, need some blood pressure medicine.
                My weapon can kill, it isn't limited to mere assault

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think that people do need to be much more proactive....as Thomas Paine says "if you do nothing...." . However, I hate seeing things like people threatening to kill the AIG execs and their families. Mob mentality often gets out of control and passes by morals and rationality.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by herbalpagan View Post
                    I saw that, it's great! I'm planning to take part in the tea bag thing, but I was alterted to the fact that the White House has asked that if you do participate, that you only send in the tea label, as they are throwing out all envelopes with tea bags in them for fear of some toxic substance.:D
                    If people decide to obey that statement, the government is in control again. Don't listen to that. Buy $25 worth of stamps, and send teabags, with the label pulled out of the envelope and taped to it.

                    If they're the ones throwing out the tea bags, imagine how much garbage they will be producing! Environmentalists will have a field day with that!

                    Better yet, how about creating an envelope made from the tea bag itself? If you can print off a sticky address label, tape 6 tea bags together with clear tape and mail them that way.

                    How about mailing them your junk mail and advertisements that say "Current Resident"? Just write "Forward To:" and the address.

                    Print out a sheet of paper that says nothing more than "Tax this" on it in big, bold print, and mail that to them.

                    How about a copy of your phone bill with the taxes highlighted (and your personal info blacked out)?

                    The more ridiculous the idea, the better. If we can fill their mailboxes with so much useless garbage, maybe they'll get overwhelmed just like the rest of us are.
                    "Reject the basic assumptions of civilization, especially the importance of material possessions." "The things you own end up owning you"-Tyler Durden

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