Who are you when the pressure is on?

[nitehawg]

The diversity on this board is what will power the discussions necessary for us to thrive. Our opinions may vary, but our respect for each other will guide us.

Das, my opinion on leadership differs from yours. IMHO leading by example is leadership, the only difference is responsibility. I think what you are describing is dictatorship, not leadership. I have seen many so called "leaders" knocked down because they were dictators, not leaders.

The only reason I referred to being a hammer was a somewhat lighthearted response to your nail analogy. Being the hammer does not necessarily mean exerting your will over anothers, that is being a dictator. However if there is someone in your group who is not acting in the best interest of the group someone has to have a conversation with that person and determine their future with the group.

Pride/ego are characteristic of a dictator, not a leader. For example, say I've been a bona fide certified mechanic for 20 yrs., and you admit that you know two things about vehicles, where the key goes and where the fuel goes. Is it wrong for me to think that I know more than you regarding vehicles?

If a person has superior facts/knowledge, and I'm the leader of their group, then I would be an idiot not to seek their guidance and assistance. I have been a leader in my work life and in my non work life. Leader type decisions are always made with input from your team. This does not mean that it is a democracy, but a leader makes decisions based on all available information.

To continue the mechanic analogy, let's say you are a member of my motor pool team, and as such we all do "X" the way I've done it for 20 yrs. After doing it a few times, you realize that it would be easier, more cost effective, safer or whatever to do "X" a different way. A dictator would ignore you under the guise of "That's the way I've done it for 20 yrs., I'm the expert so that's the way we will continue to do it." A leader will listen to your idea and if it is better, then decide we will do it your way for the appropriate reason. And, most importantly, give you the proper credit.

And finally, I don't understand how you could "convince" someone against their will. If you force someone do do something against their will, you haven't convinced them of anything other than you are a dictator and an idiot.

Sorry, I am unfamiliar with Dave Ramsey.

[das]

There is a difference between being a leader and leading. I am all for leading by example but I know better than to put my name out in front, you will be knocked down.

Being the hammer means you are exerting your will over another. I am a Christian and as such an imperfect being. To think that I know better than others is pride/ego. A person can have facts that are superior and they may have knowledge that is appropriate but that is different then your will versus another.

This has never worked in my life either through force or persuasion or threats. Those who are convinced against their will are of the same opinion still as Dave Ramsey says.

[Diesel]

well said.....

[kenno]

a general response

When I was a kid I lived outside Los Angles and my uncle (a LA Sheriff Deputy) was shot and crippled, which was a kindness of sorts as he had 7 children and he got on in life with-out being shot again.
Long before the Watts Riots several PPL I knew were mowed down in a tavern by punks looking to make a 'Big Score' on pay-day. I still avoid taverns on pay-days.
The Watts riots along with the Cuban Missle Crisis was the bed rock of my youth, I saw rampant violence (PPl were shooting at airliners and being mowed-down by 30 cal LMGs during the riots!). The Cuban Crisis emptied store shelves in mere hours!
Today there are more than 87 large gangs fom more than 57 different countrys in the USA. If the SHTF these gangs will try to take-over large portions of US cities and of course the Govt will fight back. During this time neighborhoods will form protective groups based on commonalities both ethnic, geographic, and economic. It is common scense that the folks with the most cash will have the best guns, and be the biggest target. I do not envy the rich, nor anyone else in the cities. And I pity the good folks in the country as well.
Who will I be when the pressure is on?
I'm the sucker that thinks I can make things better by helping the weak. I am also the man that knows that I'm a sucker. Stay tuned for film at '11'.

[nitehawg]

Sometimes it's not up to you to volunteer:rolleyes:

Sometimes it's good to be the hammer:D

[das]

nitehawg,
I think you are probably correct but know in my case I would never volunteer to be a leader. Not out of affection for my fellow man but to keep a low profile.

The nail that sticks out usually gets the hammer.

[nitehawg]

I think our banner up top might be pretty accurate in a long term event. Yes, I know it was a fictional TV show and had many shortcomings but it did have it's good points. And whether we like it or not, we will probably be the new leaders. Either officially or "de facto." People look for leaders. Even those who are died in the wool, I'll go it alone, hard corp preppers will either lead or join. In hard times people will notice that we are surviving without too much discomfort and chaos. I'm not suggesting that we will flourish, but hopefully we will be going along without much discomfort. People will gravitate to that and "ta-daa" a leader is born.

Like thinkers will group together and if necessary defend their group. Dissimilar groups may temporarily join together to battle predators (yes, I believe there are a class of permanent predators out there). The enemy of my enemy is my friend. After that, these groups will discover that either they're not all that dissimilar and merge, or decide that it's best to remain separate but allied for certain situations. It may take a generation or so, but things will go full circle.

Just myy opinion, YMMV

[das]

I agree. More than anything the public's feeling that, "Things will be back to normal in a few days." is the real deciding factor between apathy and anarchy. The smart ones are going to realize days before the public do when THINGS are not going to ever come back together again.

Preparedness training is all about being one of those people who can bug-out or hunker down before this happens.

[Oddball]

Back to the OP, I think the question is one of folkways and mores. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mores How will they shift given various degrees of unrest? And that's the point...the variable degrees. The degrees could be defined by the size of the unrest or the expected duration. You could have as many outcomes as situations. I would think each of us would react or respond differently if it was a short-term, localized situation vs. a massive, global loss of everything and almost everyone we knew.

[Rustyshakelford]

I was being a smart aleck

Hitler did make the trains run on time, and created the Autobahn. However, my "train" reference was referring to the rail cars loaded with Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, Homosexuals, Physically deformed, metal defects and political undesirables he referred to as "undermensch", that always ran on time. My apologies.

[das]

I thought it was Mussolini that made the trains run on time? Sorry if my Facist history knowledge is poor. I think Hitler's main claim to fame was the remilitarization of Germany...after a really convenient fire at the Reichstag soon after he came to power.

[Rustyshakelford]

It is not your place to remind me of anything having to do with Russia. It was not "the 1917 revolution". There were two revolutions: the Bolshevik, and the Communist.

If you have a problem with Russian Communism, Chinese Communism, or Yugoslavian Communism, I suggest that you take the matter up with your Jewish ancestors.

I have no problems with Hitler. I think he was a swell guy.

At least he made the trains run on time. Until we blew up all the train tracks. Again I would state that neither I, nor anyone I know sits in dark smoke filled rooms, making calls to world leaders asking them to enforce crazy political decisions, or pass ignorant laws. Of course, I am 3/4 German, and would fit the sterotypical "Perfect Aryan" profile. Except my blond hair turned brown and, like most Teutonics, fell out years ago, and am Lutheran, so I may not be on the inside know.

Of course, that huge Jewish population in China really did push the Chinese PLA takeover of the dynasty. And, of course, the Jooooos pushed for Russian communism that killed almost 7 million people, most of which were subversive joooos. And we all know how kind the Yugoslavs were to the "Undermensch" of Slovenia.

Just my opinion though.

[tracker]

I think it would be worse because of the number of imigrants. i was in Glendale,AZ for a week and could not get over the number of Russians and french that I saw and of course Mexicans. I think there will be a huge problem with organized gangs. They will have also learned from Katrina.

[Mick]

It is not your place to remind me of anything having to do with Russia. It was not "the 1917 revolution". There were two revolutions: the Bolshevik, and the Communist.

If you have a problem with Russian Communism, Chinese Communism, or Yugoslavian Communism, I suggest that you take the matter up with your Jewish ancestors.

I have no problems with Hitler. I think he was a swell guy.

[das]

Rusty,
Good post. I agree, Amercan's do have cultural groups. Are we homogenous, no. The cultures vary from region to region and socioeconomic levels. I have the ill fortune to live in the same suburban sprawl as a LARGE group of Travellers...you know the people who sell you a GREAT DEAL on retaring your roof or sealing your driveway then rip you off. They seem to ALL have new $50k trucks and luxury cars with out of state plates, their wives are primped out but trashy and their children run wild in the streets because they don't go to school.

I FEAR communities like this and work my rear off to save enough money to move. They don't pay taxes, have their own leaders, live in a cash only world and are well armed. If there is a societal collapse or even a minor governmental change expect groups like this to seek advantage over their neighbors. At least in Texas they will be stopped. In other parts of the country expect much worse, I shudder to imagine.