Who are you when the pressure is on?

[das]

In considering preparations for a societal collapse I think it is important to discuss the issue of morals. Certainly this will not be an attractive topic to people looking to find the secrets of storing grain or how to plant potatoes to avoid fungus but some people may wish to contribute. When we discuss topics such as 'who would you let in' we are sharing our values.

[Diesel]

Well an entire new concept of self governing will take effect, I forsee very clicky towns and communities that run themselevs by their ideals, and accept absolutely no substitutes, if you don't like it leave town for another one. It's just a profound and broad topic it would take books of writing to expand on it, but feel free to start posting your thoughts on it!

[das]

I agree the future will see the end of heterogeneous communities. Think secular Amish but with guns, lol.

[Legionnaire]

I figure it depends on the extent of the collapse of civilization. If a majority of the popluation is surviving, things will change vary little in the way of morals because there will be such a large common moral force. Yet if we are, for some reason, decimated the much smaller population will feel less societal pressures and will be more likely to go against our current common morals. Many of our morals were learnt over time to prevent the hurting of our own population, so I hope they don't change too much if SHTF.

[das]

Good point, that morals are defined by population. More pressure = more formalized behavior.

[Mick]

I figure it depends on the extent of the collapse of civilization. If a majority of the popluation is surviving, things will change vary little in the way of morals because there will be such a large common moral force. Yet if we are, for some reason, decimated the much smaller population will feel less societal pressures and will be more likely to go against our current common morals. Many of our morals were learnt over time to prevent the hurting of our own population, so I hope they don't change too much if SHTF.

Decimated means reduced by one tenth.

As far as the U.S. is concerned, I disagree that there is anything that can be considered a "common moral force" that exists independent of the government's ability at enforcement. Americans are not a culture the way that the Chinese are a culture or the Philippinos are a culture or the English are a culture or the Norwegians are a culture.

Like it or not, the heavy hand of a militarised law enforcement community keeps many culturally and racially homogenous groups in the U.S. from waging all-out war on other culturally and racially homogenous groups. Western Europe is becoming the same way with the flood of immigrants from Africa and Southwest Asia.

If the governing powers are no longer able to keep everything in check, I can't see what would keep the K.K.K. or white-supremecists in the South from rounding up migrant workers with Spanish accents, or prevent the Reconquistas in So. Cal. from dragging well-fed, rich honkeys out of their Beverly Hills mansions and doing as they please.

We have already seen what happens in the U.S. when an act of God occurs or when a verdict doesn't go the way a given racial group thinks it should: rape, robbery, and looting in NOLA; L.A. riots. Duh... Imagine that on a national or continental scale. If the power goes out in N.Y.C. permanently, and government assistance isn't forthcoming, no "common moral force" is going to keep those people from tearing each other apart. Then, the survivors are going to be leaving the cities and coming for those of us smart enough to not live in cities.

The morals by which Americans and western Europeans are presently living are artificial; they are not a natural byproduct of the collective, cultural psyche. Alcoholism. Drug abuse. High divorce rate. Unwed, teenage pregnancy. Oppressive taxation. Oligarchical government. Currency devaluation. Corporate fraud. These and a host of other problems are the direct result of our current "common moral force".

Personally, I do not feel societal pressure; I feel the hot breath of a government that could lock me away or execute me on the back of my neck. I welcome the opportunity to start anew.

[Rustyshakelford]

I for one do not hope for anarchy

I like running water, indoor toilets, electricity and not having to spend all day hunting for dinner. However, civilization is a fragile thing.

Another thing to remember, while I for one also feel the heavy had of our "soft dictatorship", things could be a lot worse. Revolution and susequent realignment of power has almost always turned out for the worse.

Might I remind you of the 1917 revolution in Russia? Mao Tse Tung? Tito? Hitler was spawned out of the ashes of WW1. Change is best achieved through peaceful, gradual change rather then storming the Bastile.

However, I also relaize that revolution is an almost certainty in any culture that has survived for over 200 years.

i would disagree with you on a point you made. There is a definate American culture. Almost all Americans watch football, eat hamburgers and tacos, own more then 1 car, have pets (not for eating), have indoor plumbing, shop at supermarkets, have seen Star Wars, know who Rodney Dangerfield is, like Pizza, recognize the theme to Hawaii-5-0, have eaten a corn dog and cotton candy, hate Rosie O'donnell, make jokes about Broke Back Mountain, know what a Mormon is, stereo type Asians as bad drivers, Middle Easterners as 7-11 clerks, and the Irish as cops. We recognize the theme to Buggs Bunny cartoons, make fun of Hillbillies, joke about Florida as the home of old people, and California as the home of flakey people. There are sooooo many other things that we have a shared culture that I suggest there is a very definate American culture that is common to most Americans.

[das]

Rusty,
Good post. I agree, Amercan's do have cultural groups. Are we homogenous, no. The cultures vary from region to region and socioeconomic levels. I have the ill fortune to live in the same suburban sprawl as a LARGE group of Travellers...you know the people who sell you a GREAT DEAL on retaring your roof or sealing your driveway then rip you off. They seem to ALL have new $50k trucks and luxury cars with out of state plates, their wives are primped out but trashy and their children run wild in the streets because they don't go to school.

I FEAR communities like this and work my rear off to save enough money to move. They don't pay taxes, have their own leaders, live in a cash only world and are well armed. If there is a societal collapse or even a minor governmental change expect groups like this to seek advantage over their neighbors. At least in Texas they will be stopped. In other parts of the country expect much worse, I shudder to imagine.

[Mick]

It is not your place to remind me of anything having to do with Russia. It was not "the 1917 revolution". There were two revolutions: the Bolshevik, and the Communist.

If you have a problem with Russian Communism, Chinese Communism, or Yugoslavian Communism, I suggest that you take the matter up with your Jewish ancestors.

I have no problems with Hitler. I think he was a swell guy.

[tracker]

I think it would be worse because of the number of imigrants. i was in Glendale,AZ for a week and could not get over the number of Russians and french that I saw and of course Mexicans. I think there will be a huge problem with organized gangs. They will have also learned from Katrina.

[Rustyshakelford]

It is not your place to remind me of anything having to do with Russia. It was not "the 1917 revolution". There were two revolutions: the Bolshevik, and the Communist.

If you have a problem with Russian Communism, Chinese Communism, or Yugoslavian Communism, I suggest that you take the matter up with your Jewish ancestors.

I have no problems with Hitler. I think he was a swell guy.

At least he made the trains run on time. Until we blew up all the train tracks. Again I would state that neither I, nor anyone I know sits in dark smoke filled rooms, making calls to world leaders asking them to enforce crazy political decisions, or pass ignorant laws. Of course, I am 3/4 German, and would fit the sterotypical "Perfect Aryan" profile. Except my blond hair turned brown and, like most Teutonics, fell out years ago, and am Lutheran, so I may not be on the inside know.

Of course, that huge Jewish population in China really did push the Chinese PLA takeover of the dynasty. And, of course, the Jooooos pushed for Russian communism that killed almost 7 million people, most of which were subversive joooos. And we all know how kind the Yugoslavs were to the "Undermensch" of Slovenia.

Just my opinion though.

[das]

I thought it was Mussolini that made the trains run on time? Sorry if my Facist history knowledge is poor. I think Hitler's main claim to fame was the remilitarization of Germany...after a really convenient fire at the Reichstag soon after he came to power.

[Rustyshakelford]

I was being a smart aleck

Hitler did make the trains run on time, and created the Autobahn. However, my "train" reference was referring to the rail cars loaded with Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, Homosexuals, Physically deformed, metal defects and political undesirables he referred to as "undermensch", that always ran on time. My apologies.

[Oddball]

Back to the OP, I think the question is one of folkways and mores. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mores How will they shift given various degrees of unrest? And that's the point...the variable degrees. The degrees could be defined by the size of the unrest or the expected duration. You could have as many outcomes as situations. I would think each of us would react or respond differently if it was a short-term, localized situation vs. a massive, global loss of everything and almost everyone we knew.

[das]

I agree. More than anything the public's feeling that, "Things will be back to normal in a few days." is the real deciding factor between apathy and anarchy. The smart ones are going to realize days before the public do when THINGS are not going to ever come back together again.

Preparedness training is all about being one of those people who can bug-out or hunker down before this happens.